Pearl discussion (split)

[Pepe_Silvia]

I'd rather we just ban any discussion about pearl in regards to his time at Tennessee.

 

[CDB]

I didn't say anything remotely close to that.
I've been getting strawmaned to death.
If they actually read what I wrote I don't think they would have much of a problem.
I think some people just immediately get triggered when they see Pearl and Barnes is the same sentence. They are both great coaches.

There's a nice article/video in the News Sentinel on how they both deserve to be on the Mt Rushmore of coaches that haven't won a championship.

They read what you wrote. Yhat’s why you are getting “strawmaned” to death

 

[Vols till I fall]

Barnes is a better coach than Pearl, we just saw another example of that a few hours ago.

When Barnes retires, and hopefully a long time from now, Pearl would be my second option to be a coach here.

 

[CDB]

We were trying to move on so I will keep this short. Barnes doesn’t even end up here if not for Pearl. Like I said, he passed on us originally because we were a " football school".
This is what HE said. Pearl was the catalyst to us no longer being just a " football school".

But anyways....let's just agree to disagree.
People are getting pissed. This is a SEC Tournament thread .

Repeat yourself much?

 

[CDB]

Who said I wanted Pearl back?
Again, some of you have absolutely horrendous reading comprehension.
You're literally letting your emotions cloud your brain or something.

I haven't one time mentioned anything about comparing Barnes and Pearl, nor have I mentioned anything about wanting Pearl to come back to Tennessee.

Incidentally, I gave a quote on what Barnes said when he passed on Tennessee the first time he was offered the job. So what I said is not
"unsupported speculation".

That is just Barnes being gracious.

 

[CDB]

He would in the simple fact Barnes doesn’t even make it to Tennessee if Bruce doesn't change the fact we were just a football school.
Like I have said multiple times, us being just a football school is why Barnes didn't take the job here when first offered. This is per Rick Barnes.
If Pearl doesn't create a culture of winning at Tennessee over several seasons, and prove there is a place for a top coach to be successful at Tennessee, then Barnes doesn’t come here.
Barnes has already said he is greatful for what Pearl did here at Tennessee. I don't know why some of you guys have such a problem with this?

Barnes and Pearl are friends. Bruce actually called him recently to thank/congratulate him for beating Alabama. It's ok to be thankful for what Pearl did for Tennessee and be grateful and proud of what Barnes has accomplished.

When the next coach comes in and has success it's going to be ok for him to have appreciation for what both Barnes and Pearl did for the University of Tennessee men's basketball, too.

You are speculating that Barnes would not have come here. Did Barnes say he would not have come here if it was not for Pearl?

He was in a different place, a different coach and a different man than he was 30 years ago.

 

[CDB]

Barnes offering gratitude isnt' the same as he OWES him some, like you said.

The second part of your post you seem to be interjecting your opinion into a topic that from quotes I don't see any mention of Pearl. You're inferring from what Barnes said about the job in 1989 meant that what Pearl did here made him take it in 2015 unless you can provide a quote and not your opinon.

SEC basketball in general was a completely different league than the SEC in 1989. His quote was "where the league was".

Why does Barnes owe Pearl and not Martin? Martin took the team to the S16 and was very close to an EE 2 years before Barnes took the job.

I agree. Martin was a good man and did a good job of cleaning up the mess that Pearl left.

 

[Anti-shunshinepumper]

While I am not a Pearl hater, and did enjoy his years here, I do blame him (and the administration) for the mess he left.

However, I didn’t see any big name coaches giving us the time of day after he was let go. The only reason we got Barnes is because Texas screwed up and thought he was past his prime. Big mistake! Barnes has done more for the future of Tennessee basketball than Pearl ever did.

Not sure if Pearl had anything to do with Barnes coming here.

What Barnes did a lot of coaches did, he just got caught for it. That and lied about it, which as the say the cover up is often worse than the crime.

We didn't get a big name coach immediately after Pearl most likely becasue of the impeding sanctions.
Even so, the culture of winning here was still in the air. Getting to that elite 8 for the first time in program history gave our newly growing fanbase a nice taste of what it was like to be more than just a football school.
We liked it, and haven't really looked back since.

Even during Barnes' tenure, early on you had fans that have wanted to fire him based off of comparing his progress to Pearl’s overall success.
You even have had delusional fans in the most recent years that have let their britches get so big they wanted to fire Barnes for " lack of post-season" success. They even wanted to bring Pearl back! lol

Where do you think this new found demand/expectation for success came from?
I would submit to you it came directly from the "Bruce Pearl years".

Like I said originally, Barnes himself is going to deserve a ton of credit for exponentially building on what Pearl started if it happens to be the next coach that comes in that gets us our first final 4/Natty.

Surely one could see if that did happen that Barnes might just deserve a bit of a thanks from the new head coach?

 

[CDB]

What Barnes did a lot of coaches did, he just got caught for it. That and lied about it, which as the say the cover up is often worse than the crime.

We didn't get a big name coach immediately after Pearl most likely becasue of the impeding sanctions.
Even so, the culture of winning here was still in the air. Getting to that elite 8 for the first time in program history gave our newly growing fanbase a nice taste of what it was like to be more than just a football school.
We liked it, and haven't really looked back since.

Even during Barnes' tenure, early on you had fans that have wanted to fire him based off of comparimg his progress to Pearl’s success.
You even have had delusional fans in the most recent years that have let their britches get so big they wanted to fire Barnes for " lack of post-season" success. They even wanted to bring Pearl back!

Where do you think this new found demand/expectation for success came from?
I would submit to you it came directly from the "Bruce Pearl years".

Like I said originally, Barnes himself is going to deserve a ton of credit for exponentially building on what Pearl started if it happens to be the next coach that comes in that gets us our first final 4/Natty.

Surely one could see if that did happen say in the next 1-3 years that Barnes might just deserve a bit of a thanks from the new head coach?

So Pearl gets a pass because everybody else does it?

Oh yeah, I forgot about that big name coach Tyndall.

Pearl didn’t “start” it. He stoked the fire and then pissed all over it.

 

[onevol74]

You keep missing the point, and I think at this point it is intentional. ( Pearl hate?)

Without Pearl having those winning seasons the job at Tennessee is not going to be desirable enough for Barnes to even want.
We couldn't get a head coach worth a flip before Pearl. Certainly not a big name head coach. Like another poster said, he showed "if you build it they will come".
Besides that, he showed there was an appetite for winning men's basketball here as much as there was for football.
He also proved to other big name coaches you could be successful here.
I'm telling you, without those winning seasons by from Pearl, Barnes doesn’t come here and have a nice spot to set up shop after Texas ran him off.

You do not know that. Just your assumption. I love the fact that Pearl and Barnes both coached here but I also consider them in two different eras since the program dipped in between their stints.

The fact that Barnes is here is only due to some very unusual and unique circumstances including his wife’s connection to the school, the timing of his firing from Tejas, and proximity to Hickory North Carolina. If those stars had not aligned then I think there would have been very little chance the man would have ever been our coach, regardless of who our previous coaches were.

 

[Anti-shunshinepumper]

So Pearl gets a pass because everybody else does it?

Oh yeah, I forgot about that big name coach Tyndall.

Pearl didn’t “start” it. He stoked the fire and then pissed all over it.

I didn't say he gets a pass ( whatever that would even mean) Just telling you the reality of the situation.
Even with the sanctions, Pearl was still a Net positive for our program.

I think I get it now. Some of you just don't like Pearl over those sanctions.
It all makes sense. That's fine, don't like him, but that doesn't mean that you have deny the positive things he did for this program.

Oh, and about that list of thank you names when we win a Natty, Tydall won't be on mine.

 

[Anti-shunshinepumper]

You do not know that. Just your assumption. I love the fact that Pearl and Barnes both coached here but I also consider them in two different eras since the program dipped in between their stints.

The fact that Barnes is here is only due to some very unusual and unique circumstances including his wife’s connection to the school, the timing of his firing from Tejas, and proximity to Hickory North Carolina. If those stars had not aligned then I think there would have been very little chance the man would have ever been our coach, regardless of who our previous coaches were.

And it's your assumption he would have came here anyways. You're entitled to your opinion as am I.
I will say his connections here were probably why he was considered/offered the job way back when.
What we do know as fact is he passed on this school then because it and the a lot of the league were known as " footballs schools ".
Pearl undoubtedly helped change this perception in regards to Tennessee.

So of our two assumptions, at least mine is based on a piece of established fact that lends strongly to my argument .

 

[CDB]

I didn't say he gets a pass ( whatever that would even mean) Just telling you the reality of the situation.
Even with the sanctions, Pearl was still a Net positive for our program.

I think I get it now. Some of you just don't like Pearl over those sanctions.
It all makes sense. That's fine, don't like him, but that doesn't mean that you have deny the positive things he did for this program.

Oh, and about that list of thank you names when we win a Natty, Tydall won't be on mine.

You’re the one that said we didn’t get a big name coach immediately because of the sanctions.

If Pearl laid such a great foundation, we should’ve at least interviewed a couple of big name coaches after the sanctions were over.

Your own words are proof that Pearl’s foundation was built on sand.

And you are correct, I blame Pearl for what we had to endure after he was let go. If you can’t see that, then you are blinded by your infatuation with him.

 

[Anti-shunshinepumper]

You’re the one that said we didn’t get a big name coach immediately because of the sanctions.

If Pearl laid such a great foundation, we should’ve at least interviewed a couple of big name coaches after the sanctions were over.

Your own words are proof that Pearl’s foundation was built on sand.

And you are correct, I blame Pearl for what we had to endure after he was let go. If you can’t see that, then you are blinded by your infatuation with him.

NO, I said "most likely because of the impeding sanctions". I don't know for sure and neither do you. I think it's safe to say no coach wanted any part of ongoing sanctions.

I also don't know what coaches were considered after the sanctions and what else might have been going on when they ended. There could have been other factors we don't know about.
Relatively speaking, it wasn’t long after they officially ended we got Barnes.

And like I said, the appetite for winning Pearl created was still in the air. Matter of a fact, it remained in the air for years after Barnes came or you wouldn't have had a group of fans wanting to fire Barnes and even bring Pearl back.
The arrogance from these fans unquestionably came from the success that they experienced under Pearl.

To your last point, hate Pearl all you want, dude.
It really matters to me not.

 

[Anti-shunshinepumper]

That is just Barnes being gracious.

A lot of you guys with severe Pearl hate could learn a thing or two from Barnes, you know it?

 

[Anti-shunshinepumper]

Repeat yourself much?

Says the guy that has replied to me several times in the last hour wanting to rehash and revive what most of us had agreed to disagree on

 

[#1fulmerite]

And without Donnie getting fired with cause we may not end up with Barnes.

Does Bruce Pearl owe Jerry Green some gratitude?

Man, we have to go all the way back to Doug Roth and Don Devoe if one doesn’t give credit where credit is due.

I still remember that #1 ranking just after that win against Memphis. Then, two days later thst loss against Vandy!

 

[EasternVol]

Why were they different in 1989 and 2015?
Could it be because of coaches like Bruce Pearl having success at SEC programs?
I also said I am fine with giving Green credit if you ( meaning anyone) wanted to.

The main difference at UT was the AD. Dickey was all football all the time and didn't do our basketball program any favors.
The SEC other than UT was far from 'just football' in the 80s. Four teams went to the F4 and it was among the best basketball conferences.

 

[Butch s]

I always give them both credit for UT basketball being what it is today. If Barnes was to win a Natty he would owe Pearl a little bit of gratitude.
If Barnes isn't able to get it done, the next coach that comes in and gets it done is going to owe both Barnes and Pearl a ton of gratitude for building a culture of winning here at UT in respect to Basketball.

He doesn’t owe pearl a damn thing

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

I’ve never heard the so called fact that Barnes wanted no part of TN because it and the SEC was too football oriented. I’d like to see a link to something believable. It’s not like Barnes keeps that type of thing a secret.

When Devoe was hired in 1978 the idea to build a new, mega basketball arena was already in play. $25 million was a huge non-football commitment at that time. Mears was still around when one option was considered to build it in the south end of Neyland Stadium as a convertible venue. TN was neck and neck with Bama as the #2 basketball program in the SEC and Mears had just gone 0.500 versus Adolph Rupp and Joe B Hall. The NCAAT wasn’t that big of a deal in the 1970s. Early rounds aren’t even on TV. TN was committed to building up the basketball program at that time.

Then when Devoe had his early success the plans materialized to build the LARGEST ON CAMPUS BASKETBALL FACILITY in the country. It wasn’t going to be bigger than the Carrier Dome which opened in 1980. But the CD wasn’t used exclusively for basketball. TBA was built specifically to be bigger than Rupp Arena. That’s not done without having a commitment to basketball as well as football.

TBA began construction in 1983 under Woodruff and it was completed in 1987 under Dickey.

Dickey neglected basketball in the 1990s, but he attempted to upgrade basketball in 1989 when he fired Devoe. At that time Pat Kennedy was the overwhelming number one target and he flirted with TN but he decided to stay at FL State. Houston was 2-A and Leonard Hamilton was 2-B. Both flew in to Knoxville for interviews. Dickey wanted to hire LH but Lamar Alexander made him hire Houston. TN was going to hire a black head coach if they didn’t land Kennedy. Barnes wasn’t a serious candidate. He had just moved on from George Mason to Providence. He wouldn’t have been an upgrade over Devoe at that time.

After Dickey fired Houston in 1994, the overwhelming first choice was Kevin O’Neill. He had Marquette in the Sweet 16 and it was a given that when he was in the 1994 NCAA Sweet 16 at Thompson-Boling that he was going to be the next UT coach. There really wasn’t a coaching search beyond KO and Barnes was hired at Clemson at that same time. KO was the hottest available candidate and UT easily hired him. Further evidence that TN was taking basketball seriously.

KO battled with Dickey and quit abruptly after 3 years. Then KO proceeded to contact all of the potential replacement candidates to trash Dickey and UT. Jerry Green was way down the list. He was about the 6th, 7th, or 8th choice and was hired in 1997. Barnes had just finished his 3rd year at Clemson and maybe he was one of the coaches that KO contacted urging them to not work for Dickey. If so, he didn’t turn TN down because TN wasn’t serious about basketball. It would have been because Doug Dickey was a prick and would have been a s***ty boss.

Green left in 2001 after 4x NCAATs and 4x 20 win seasons. Barnes had just completed his 3rd year at Texas and it would have been a lateral move at best to leave Texas for Tennessee. Probably a step back. And Texas was clearly a FOOTBALL FIRST school.

Buzz was hired in 2001 and it was a mistake to stick with the North Carolina coaching tree. Peterson was Michael Jordan’s roommate. But I don’t recall MJ ever setting foot in Knoxville to offer support of any kind to TN BB and Buzz.

Dickey left as AD in 2002 snd Mike Hamilton was hired from within in 2003.

The Bruce Pearl hire resembled the KO hire. An overachieving Sweet 16 coach that was the first and only choice. Bruce had baggage but got Grunfeld’s endorsement. Grunfeld was the GM for the Milwaukee Bucks during the first couple of years that Bruce was at UW-Milwaukee. TN was already committed to basketball when BP was hired in 2005.

Bruce left TN’s program as a dumpster inferno. Then he lurked around Knoxville after Cuonzo was hired. Cuonzo was the opposite of Pearl. He had integrity, class, and didn’t promote a circus atmosphere.

The only time that Barnes MIGHT have avoided UT was when KO was trying to burn down UT to get back at Dickey. Several other names did the same. And Barnes was comfortably at Clemson. There was no reason to leave Clemson to come work for Dickey at UT. After KO and after BP were the 2 most toxic periods in TN basketball history and neither was due to a lack of commitment because TN was a football school,

 

[Anti-shunshinepumper]

The main difference at UT was the AD. Dickey was all football all the time and didn't do our basketball program any favors.
The SEC other than UT was far from 'just football' in the 80s. Four teams went to the F4 and it was among the best basketball conferences.

Well that wasn't Barnes perception, and that's all that really matters in regards to this discussion.

SEC being a basketball league was not what he discussed with reporters from ESPN back when he passed on the this job the first go around in 1989. Quite the contrary. Same with Dickey being his problem here.
Actually, he specifically said him not coming here " didn't have anything to do with with Doug Dickey. "
His concern was that the Tennessee and SEC in general was "set out on being the best football league".

You have to keep in mind, he wasn't being offered the Job at Kentucky. Context was him being offered the job at Tennessee.
Barnes wasn't really too thrilled with the SEC in general even after he took the job here.
It wasn't until Greg Sankey took over as commissioner that he felt the SEC could be strong from the top to the bottom.

Barnes recently said in an ESPN interview,
"The running joke was that you've got football season, spring football, and then everything else falls behind it, and that basketball is in there somewhere.
That was a mentality that was created by leadership, whether you want to call it the leadership in the conference, the schools or whatever. There just wasn't an emphasis placed on basketball across the league."

You can feel free to conclude anything you'd like to in respect. My conclusion is Barnes decided to take a chance on Tennessee because he felt they were one of the SEC schools that was at least willing to place an emphasis on basketball.

Why did he feel this way?

Because they did it under Coach Bruce Pearl.
The more success Pearl had the more backing he got. It's not a far reach at all to conclude Pearl's success here at Tennessee influenced Barnes decision to come here at some level.

And again, nobody has to agree with this. I never said everyone must agree with me.
I've simply gave my opinion backed by solid fact- based evidence.
There's nothing more I can do in regards to Barnes's decision to come here. Only Barnes truly knows.
If you ( meaning anyone) disagrees at this point feel free to knock yourself out.
You'll not change my mind unless you can present a similarly convincing argument as I have.

 

[Anti-shunshinepumper]

I’ve never heard the so called fact that Barnes wanted no part of TN because it and the SEC was too football oriented. I’d like to see a link to something believable. It’s not like Barnes keeps that type of thing a secret.

When Devoe was hired in 1978 the idea to build a new, mega basketball arena was already in play. $25 million was a huge non-football commitment at that time. Mears was still around when one option was considered to build it in the south end of Neyland Stadium as a convertible venue. TN was neck and neck with Bama as the #2 basketball program in the SEC and Mears had just gone 0.500 versus Adolph Rupp and Joe B Hall. The NCAAT wasn’t that big of a deal in the 1970s. Early rounds aren’t even on TV. TN was committed to building up the basketball program at that time.

Then when Devoe had his early success the plans materialized to build the LARGEST ON CAMPUS BASKETBALL FACILITY in the country. It wasn’t going to be bigger than the Carrier Dome which opened in 1980. But the CD wasn’t used exclusively for basketball. TBA was built specifically to be bigger than Rupp Arena. That’s not done without having a commitment to basketball as well as football.

TBA began construction in 1983 under Woodruff and it was completed in 1987 under Dickey.

Dickey neglected basketball in the 1990s, but he attempted to upgrade basketball in 1989 when he fired Devoe. At that time Pat Kennedy was the overwhelming number one target and he flirted with TN but he decided to stay at FL State. Houston was 2-A and Leonard Hamilton was 2-B. Both flew in to Knoxville for interviews. Dickey wanted to hire LH but Lamar Alexander made him hire Houston. TN was going to hire a black head coach if they didn’t land Kennedy. Barnes wasn’t a serious candidate. He had just moved on from George Mason to Providence. He wouldn’t have been an upgrade over Devoe at that time.

After Dickey fired Houston in 1994, the overwhelming first choice was Kevin O’Neill. He had Marquette in the Sweet 16 and it was a given that when he was in the 1994 NCAA Sweet 16 at Thompson-Boling that he was going to be the next UT coach. There really wasn’t a coaching search beyond KO and Barnes was hired at Clemson at that same time. KO was the hottest available candidate and UT easily hired him. Further evidence that TN was taking basketball seriously.

KO battled with Dickey and quit abruptly after 3 years. Then KO proceeded to contact all of the potential replacement candidates to trash Dickey and UT. Jerry Green was way down the list. He was about the 6th, 7th, or 8th choice and was hired in 1997. Barnes had just finished his 3rd year at Clemson and maybe he was one of the coaches that KO contacted urging them to not work for Dickey. If so, he didn’t turn TN down because TN wasn’t serious about basketball. It would have been because Doug Dickey was a prick and would have been a s***ty boss.

Green left in 2001 after 4x NCAATs and 4x 20 win seasons. Barnes had just completed his 3rd year at Texas and it would have been a lateral move at best to leave Texas for Tennessee. Probably a step back. And Texas was clearly a FOOTBALL FIRST school.

Buzz was hired in 2001 and it was a mistake to stick with the North Carolina coaching tree. Peterson was Michael Jordan’s roommate. But I don’t recall MJ ever setting foot in Knoxville to offer support of any kind to TN BB and Buzz.

Dickey left as AD in 2002 snd Mike Hamilton was hired from within in 2003.

The Bruce Pearl hire resembled the KO hire. An overachieving Sweet 16 coach that was the first and only choice. Bruce had baggage but got Grunfeld’s endorsement. Grunfeld was the GM for the Milwaukee Bucks during the first couple of years that Bruce was at UW-Milwaukee. TN was already committed to basketball when BP was hired in 2005.

Bruce left TN’s program as a dumpster inferno. Then he lurked around Knoxville after Cuonzo was hired. Cuonzo was the opposite of Pearl. He had integrity, class, and didn’t promote a circus atmosphere.

The only time that Barnes MIGHT have avoided UT was when KO was trying to burn down UT to get back at Dickey. Several other names did the same. And Barnes was comfortably at Clemson. There was no reason to leave Clemson to come work for Dickey at UT. After KO and after BP were the 2 most toxic periods in TN basketball history and neither was due to a lack of commitment because TN was a football school,

"Barnes had just finished his 3rd year at Clemson and maybe he was one of the coaches that KO contacted urging them to not work for Dickey. If so, he didn’t turn TN down because TN wasn’t serious about basketball. It would have been because Doug Dickey was a prick and would have been a s***ty boss."

Nope. Barnes himself said it nothing to do with Doug Dickey. There is a recent ESPN article from last Wednesday about how the SEC has became dominant where he says specifically this. It's the same article where he talks about the 1989 job hire and the SEC being set being a football league (Tennessee in the SEC, btw)

Nice conjecture, tho.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

"Barnes had just finished his 3rd year at Clemson and maybe he was one of the coaches that KO contacted urging them to not work for Dickey. If so, he didn’t turn TN down because TN wasn’t serious about basketball. It would have been because Doug Dickey was a prick and would have been a s***ty boss."

Nope. Barnes himself said it nothing to do with Doug Dickey. There is a recent ESPN article from last Wednesday about how the SEC has became dominant where he says specifically this. It's the same article where he talks about the 1989 job hire and the SEC being set being a football league (Tennessee in the SEC, btw)

Nice conjecture, tho.

Barnes wasn’t a top candidate for the UT job in 1989. It was Pat Kennedy by far #1 and Houston/Hamilton was the fall back option.

 

[Anti-shunshinepumper]

^^^
From the article:
The school twice tried to hire Barnes when he was younger, the first time when he was at Providence and then again when he was at Clemson. He simply wasn't sold on the SEC's commitment to basketball.

 

[Anti-shunshinepumper]

Barnes wasn’t a top candidate for the UT job in 1989. It was Pat Kennedy by far #1 and Houston/Hamilton was the fall back option.

So what?
Doesn't change the facts.
Again, nice conjecture.