Penn State sanctions reduced

#126
#126
VolsSportsFan said:
Not really the point at all. Plus as already mentioned, they had about 6 weeks to transfer before the season started.
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Again, there have been bigger tragedies. Yes it sucks for the players there, absolutely. But sometimes there are just bigger, more important things that need to be dealt with and unfortunately those players were caught in the crossfire. However that does not change the fact that the program needed to be dealt with swiftly and severely. There was no way blood wasn't going to get on somebody's clothes over it. The problem is that the player's anger shouldn't have been directed at the NCAA but rather at Paterno, Sandusky, and the other assistants and administrators who allowed this to go on and put the program in that position in the first place.
 
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#127
#127
governmentmule said:
you should read your own post,i do have a very strong opinion on this,as others do,no need to to get to name calling
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You aren't stupid because you have a different opinion than I do. You are stupid because your response to my differing opinion is to attribute abhorrent thought processes to me.
 
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#128
#128
VolsSportsFan said:
The "PROGRAM" is people running it, so if you get rid of and prosecute the people that allowed it to happen, seems like you fix the problem, rather than just slap some emotion-based penalty on it to make everybody feel better.
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So do you think a program who showed lack of institutional control in violating NCAA rules in say, recruiting, paying players, etc should not deserve any sanctions so long as they get rid of the coach and players responsible?
 
#129
#129
Brave Volunteer said:
If that's the case then good for them! However I still don't see the positive in it lifiting the sanctions. It's still a PROGRAM that allowed something terrible to happen. As such, the PROGRAM needs to be held accountable. As it is, they're reducing the punishment down to something of the equivalent to grade fixing or playing inelligible players.
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Well, the punishment from the very beginning was significantly less than what's previously been dished out for paying players.
 
#130
#130
Brave Volunteer said:
Again, there have been bigger tragedies. Yes it sucks for the players there, absolutely. But sometimes there are just bigger, more important things that need to be dealt with and unfortunately those players were caught in the crossfire. However that does not change the fact that the program needed to be dealt with swiftly and severely. There was no way blood wasn't going to get on somebody's clothes over it.
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Am I crazy for thinking the "blood" should have been on those who actually did something wrong?
 
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#131
#131
Brave Volunteer said:
So do you think a program who showed lack of institutional control in violating NCAA rules in say, recruiting, paying players, etc should not deserve any sanctions so long as they get rid of the coach and players responsible?
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You just neatly detailed the issue:

The NCAA has rules about recruiting, paying players, etc. They have no rules regarding criminal activity. Until Penn State, the NCAA had never gotten involved in a case involving the criminal behavior of a coach, staff member, or athlete.
 
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#133
#133
bamawriter said:
You just neatly detailed the issue:

The NCAA has rules about recruiting, paying players, etc. They have no rules regarding criminal activity. Until Penn State, the NCAA had never gotten involved in a case involving the criminal behavior of a coach, staff member, or athlete.
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They have a rule against "Lack of Institutional Control" and I'll be damned if this doesn't fall under that category!
 
#134
#134
bamawriter said:
No, an organization was not afraid of anything. Four men who were a part of an organization with thousands of members were afraid, and those four men did wrong. Unless you are firm believer in guilt by associaton. In that case, God help you if your coworker, family member, or any other person connected to your life ever does anything wrong.



I wasn't aware that anyone wasn't condemning the actions of Sandusky, Paterno, Spanier, Curley, and Schultz. Heck, I'll even throw in Mike McQueary. If they NCAA should have punished anyone, they should have laid a show cause on that spineless twerp.



There are more important things in life than football, and to prove this, the NCAA should do what they can to make sure that PSU doesn't win very many football games? Logical, rational people will see a flaw in that plan, so I'm sure you won't.
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Do you get dumber as the day goes on? Are you so simple minded that you don't realize the culture of the organization played as much of a role in this as any of these individuals? These individuals failed to protect innocent children because of the culture of the organization was to win and protect the program at ANY cost. It's the same reason that janitor didn't run in the bathroom and save that child getting ass raped...he knew what would happen to him if directly opposed someone of that status in the program. It's the same reason McQueary didn't do everything in his power to stop it....he was afraid of backlash from the organization. This is much larger than 1 monster and 4 cowards. This is an institutional problem and if don't have the ability to see it, then you might want to take your head out of Saban's rear end for a while.
 
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#135
#135
Volfan76 said:
... the culture of the organization played as much of a role in this as any of these individuals? These individuals failed to protect innocent children because of the culture of the organization was to win and protect the program at ANY cost. It's the same reason that janitor didn't run in the bathroom and save that child getting ass raped...he knew what would happen to him if directly opposed someone of that status in the program. It's the same reason McQueary didn't do everything in his power to stop it....he was afraid of backlash from the organization. This is much larger than 1 monster and 4 cowards. This is an institutional problem and if don't have the ability to see it, then you might want to take your head out of Saban's rear end for a while.
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Thank you!!! :good!:
 
#136
#136
There are a lot of good points being made in this thread. From my view, had the Sandusky incident been the only incident, then I would absolutely agree the NCAA had no issue being involved. However, again in my opinion, the secret disciplinary culture within the PSU football program contributed to the way Sandusky's activities were hidden and the police were in no position to break up that culture.

For most of Joe's time as HC at PSU, he controlled every aspect of the program. He and often he alone, determined who would be punished for anything anyone in the football program did wrong. There were allegations and rumors of robberies, assaults, cheating, and so forth that popped up over the years. Police were rarely involved and if they were, they quickly and quietly left the scene and allowed Paterno to handle the situation. There was no thought to go to any authority outside of Joe for anything involving the football program. And, when PSU administrators who were responsible for investigating and ruling on student issues tried to involve themselves with football players, they were either quieted or fired. Finally, Penn State's record of compliance with NCAA by-laws is a well known charade--it wasn't that they never violated any, they just never reported and no one in their compliance department was brave enough to hold them accountable.

In my mind, the NCAA recognized this culture of secrecy as both an issue for overall NCAA authority and compliance, as well as one of the major contributors to Sandusky being able to continue his horrible actions over time. Had the issue been left solely up to law enforcement, then it is entirely possible that that sort of wall of silence would have impacted the trial. And, the culture of secrecy would have continued on anything else regarding the program. Therefore, the NCAA was the only body capable of shaking them up to the point where they (i.e. PSU) saw the need to open up and join the rest of college football in terms of compliance and transparency. I think they did the right thing at the time and I think the developments in the program since have proven that to be correct. Now that they have made the changes, I have no issue if the NCAA wants to reduce the penalties as they've had the effect that was needed.
 
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#137
#137
Brave Volunteer said:
So do you think a program who showed lack of institutional control in violating NCAA rules in say, recruiting, paying players, etc should not deserve any sanctions so long as they get rid of the coach and players responsible?
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No, but your scenario is exactly what the NCAA should make rulings on, not criminal matters to be handled by the justice system.

Apples and oranges.
 
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#138
#138
Brave Volunteer said:
Again, there have been bigger tragedies. Yes it sucks for the players there, absolutely. But sometimes there are just bigger, more important things that need to be dealt with and unfortunately those players were caught in the crossfire. However that does not change the fact that the program needed to be dealt with swiftly and severely. There was no way blood wasn't going to get on somebody's clothes over it. The problem is that the player's anger shouldn't have been directed at the NCAA but rather at Paterno, Sandusky, and the other assistants and administrators who allowed this to go on and put the program in that position in the first place.
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What does there being "bigger tragedies" have to do with anything? That's a complete copout.

A wrong decision is a wrong decision; it doesn't matter what you compare it to.
 
#139
#139
bamawriter said:
You are stupid. And I don't mean that to be insulting for the sake of insult. You continually accuse me of arguing that "everything is okay", as if I don't care that children were abused. You are stupid, and I know this because you either cannot understand what you are reading, or you aren't capable of rationally debating me, so you resort to the lowest, ugliest accusation possible.

Stop being stupid.
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we aren't not talking about the kids involved,that was a terrible thing and we agree on that,i know you care about the kids,the same as we all do,it is just the repercussions to Penn State that we disagree on
 
#140
#140
VolsSportsFan said:
What does there being "bigger tragedies" have to do with anything? That's a complete copout.

A wrong decision is a wrong decision; it doesn't matter what you compare it to.
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You keep bringing up the fact that the players didn't deserve to be effected by the actions of the NCAA because they had nothing to do with the crimes committed. To me that insenuates that you think the NCAA shouldn't have acted at all BECAUSE of that. That's why I said "there are bigger tragedies." I really do feel for the players who had nothing to do with this but sometimes things have to be dealt with that are bigger than the individual players and the NCAA didnt' need to let something like that stop them from doing what needed to be done. I think the NCAA was very fair in allowing the players to transfer to any school of their choice in order to get out from under scrutiny and sanctions. Some chose to take advantage. Some chose to stay. I respect both for the decisions they made. However I'm not going to sit here and act like those players had their entire lives ruined over it.
 
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#143
#143
Brave Volunteer said:
They have a rule against "Lack of Institutional Control" and I'll be damned if this doesn't fall under that category!
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A finding of LOIC first requires a finding of an underlying violation. Can you point out the violation in the NCAA rulebook? They never referred to any violation or LOIC when they released the sanctions, so I need you to fill in the gaps.
 
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#144
#144
Volfan76 said:
Do you get dumber as the day goes on? Are you so simple minded that you don't realize the culture of the organization played as much of a role in this as any of these individuals? These individuals failed to protect innocent children because of the culture of the organization was to win and protect the program at ANY cost. It's the same reason that janitor didn't run in the bathroom and save that child getting ass raped...he knew what would happen to him if directly opposed someone of that status in the program. It's the same reason McQueary didn't do everything in his power to stop it....he was afraid of backlash from the organization. This is much larger than 1 monster and 4 cowards. This is an institutional problem and if don't have the ability to see it, then you might want to take your head out of Saban's rear end for a while.
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Can you link me to the section in the rulebook that details violations of culture?
 
#146
#146
governmentmule said:
we aren't not talking about the kids involved,that was a terrible thing and we agree on that,i know you care about the kids,the same as we all do,it is just the repercussions to Penn State that we disagree on
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I appreciate you clarifying.

Volfan76 said:
Nobody is as dedicated to an irrational argument as you are unless they have a hidden agenda. Are you a member of NAMBLA?
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This idiot^, on the other hand...
 
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#148
#148
bamawriter said:
Can you link me to the section in the rulebook that details violations of culture?
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"Can you tell me where the mess hall is? Oh come on, it must be in the rule book somewhere? So you you're telling me in all these years you never had a meal?"

"No sir, 3 squares a day sir."

"So how did you know where the mess hall was if it's not in the rule book?"

"I guess I just followed the crowd at chow time sir."


Sorry, I just couldn't resist!!! :)
 
#149
#149
Brave Volunteer said:
I think he's a lawyer.
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If he's a lawyer, he's got to be the worst one in entire state of Alabama.... if you can imagine that. I deal with some snake of attorneys and I can't even see them shamelessly defending an organization that facilitated the ass rape of children.(or perhaps even worse yet, the organization that had the courage to punish them). This guy isn't even getting paid. He has an agenda.
 
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