Penn State scandal (merged)

#5,151
#5,151
bamawriter said:
If you want the NCAA to have authority to punish crime, you don't get to choose which crimes.
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Excellent strawman there. Who said that the NCAA should be punishing "crime" in general? This case is about one thing: Penn State's institutional coverup of a crime involving its football program. That's what people are saying should be punished. That's why I said three pages ago that you could write one paragraph that included the words "felony" and "obstruction of justice" that would set all the precedent necessary.
 
#5,152
#5,152
Vercingetorix said:
Excellent strawman there. Who said that the NCAA should be punishing "crime" in general? This case is about one thing: Penn State's institutional coverup of a crime involving its football program. That's what people are saying should be punished. That's why I said three pages ago that you could write one paragraph that included the words "felony" and "obstruction of justice" that would set all the precedent necessary.
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Its a difficult process to understand
 
#5,153
#5,153
CountVolcula said:
Cause stealing laptops, finding out, due process, and expelling the offender is so much like raping children and covering it up for 14 years to protect the University and its Football program and image
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Gotcha. You want them to punish crime when it occurs somewhere other than UT.
 
#5,155
#5,155
Vercingetorix said:
Excellent strawman there. Who said that the NCAA should be punishing "crime" in general? This case is about one thing: Penn State's institutional coverup of a crime involving its football program. That's what people are saying should be punished. That's why I said three pages ago that you could write one paragraph that included the words "felony" and "obstruction of justice" that would set all the precedent necessary.
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LOI has never beem applied to actions not covered by NCAA bylaws before now. If you set that precedent, you have to be willing to live with it.
 
#5,156
#5,156
bamawriter said:
Gotcha. You want them to punish crime when it occurs somewhere other than UT.
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This is ridiculous.

As the other poster said, this is about covering up a crime and enabling the crime to continue for many years. And, you're comparing that to Cam Clear. Show me where, in the Clear situation, UT exhibited immoral decision making or lack of institutional control.
 
#5,157
#5,157
bamawriter said:
Gotcha. You want them to punish crime when it occurs somewhere other than UT.
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THEY....ARE.....NOT.....PUNISHING.......CRIME

The courts have already done that

They are upholding RULES....OF.....ETHICS

Much like if I were to get arrested for violating the law, but not found guilty, I could still lose my job because of the ethics behind me being arrested.

This is not really that difficult to understand
 
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#5,159
#5,159
I saw Bob Costas (spelling?) do an interview. on Brian Williams tonight and he seems to think PSU may get a 1 or 2 year ban by the NCAA.
 
#5,160
#5,160
ukvols said:
This is ridiculous.

As the other poster said, this is about covering up a crime and enabling the crime to continue for many years. And, you're comparing that to Cam Clear. Show me where, in the Clear situation, UT exhibited immoral decision making or lack of institutional control.
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PSU didn't exhibit a lack of control. The guys in charge were totally in control. The only people above the 4 men involved were the BOT, and they were kept out. There were no boosters or agents running wild. There was a pedophile who was handled with kid gloves. Read the report, and you'll conclude that a lack of control was the least of PSU's problems.
 
#5,161
#5,161
Vercingetorix said:
Based on what the NCAA has released so far, I think they're going to pressure PSU heavily behind the scenes to do something voluntarily so that the NCAA doesn't have to.
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I think PSU understands this and we may see the harshest punishment ever handed down by an institution on itself

They know they are in a situation that if they dont do enough, it might be a death blow too
 
#5,162
#5,162
bamawriter said:
PSU didn't exhibit a lack of control. The guys in charge were totally in control. The only people above the 4 men involved were the BOT, and they were kept out. There were no boosters or agents running wild. There was a pedophile who was handled with kid gloves. Read the report, and you'll conclude that a lack of control was the least of PSU's problems.
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The President, AD, and Head Coach is somehow not Penn State?

So who would be Penn State?
 
#5,163
#5,163
CountVolcula said:
THEY....ARE.....NOT.....PUNISHING.......CRIME

The courts have already done that

They are upholding RULES....OF.....ETHICS

Much like if I were to get arrested for violating the law, but not found guilty, I could still lose my job because of the ethics behind me being arrested.

This is not really that difficult to understand
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I presume you're implying in the hypothetical that there was evidence that you deserved to be arrested, even if you got off in court. I'd hate to lose my job over an honest mistake by the cops.
 
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#5,164
#5,164
CountVolcula said:
THEY....ARE.....NOT.....PUNISHING.......CRIME

The courts have already done that

They are upholding RULES....OF.....ETHICS

Much like if I were to get arrested for violating the law, but not found guilty, I could still lose my job because of the ethics behind me being arrested.

This is not really that difficult to understand
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The entire NCAA rulebook is about ethics. But not this particular ethics viiolation. Throughout its his history, the NCAA has stayed out of issues better left to the courts.
 
#5,165
#5,165
bamawriter said:
PSU didn't exhibit a lack of control. The guys in charge were totally in control. The only people above the 4 men involved were the BOT, and they were kept out. There were no boosters or agents running wild. There was a pedophile who was handled with kid gloves. Read the report, and you'll conclude that a lack of control was the least of PSU's problems.
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That's a semantical copout. The phrase "lack of institutional control" presumes that there are guys at the top of the institution who are supposed to be doing the right thing and riding herd on the athletics department. In this situation, the rot went all the way to the top. Just because the whole institution was corrupt doesn't mean that it's still not fundamentally the same thing.
 
#5,167
#5,167
bamawriter said:
The entire NCAA rulebook is about ethics. But not this particular ethics viiolation. Throughout its his history, the NCAA has stayed out of issues better left to the courts.
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When has raping children in the football complex and covering it up ever come up before?
 
#5,171
#5,171
bamawriter said:
PSU didn't exhibit a lack of control. The guys in charge were totally in control. The only people above the 4 men involved were the BOT, and they were kept out. There were no boosters or agents running wild. There was a pedophile who was handled with kid gloves. Read the report, and you'll conclude that a lack of control was the least of PSU's problems.
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From the FAQ on ncaa.org:

"A lack of institutional control is found when the Committee on Infractions determines that major violations occurred and the institution failed to display:

Adequate compliance measures.
Appropriate education on those compliance measures.
Sufficient monitoring to ensure the compliance measures are followed.
Swift action upon learning of a violation."

http://ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/enforcement/process/charging

For the purposes of our debate, let's consider Sandusky's acts to be the "major violation." In Tennessee's case, the "major violation" would be Clear's thefts.

One football program lacked institutional control; the other didn't.
 
#5,173
#5,173
95 Vol Alum said:
NCAA sanctions could be next for Penn State - Chicago Sun-Times

Writer explores the issue from some of the various angles being explored here.
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"Under its current rules, the NCAA has a better case for investigating and punishing Penn State regarding Sandusky’s transportation of children to football games and athletic facilities than the actual crimes, Jackson suggested."

Only the NCAA could investigate this situation and come down on Penn State -- because the rape victims received an illegal benefit.
 
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