Peyton manning= best qb ever

[BenGrimm]

Brady was MVP vs. the Rams, and threw for 133 yards. The game was won by the kicker.
SB MVP can't account for that much.

Agreed. Unless there is a truly impressive performance by a player on the winning team it defaults to the QB.

Manning's SB MVP is probably the most unimpressive individual honor on his resume.

 

[KBVol]

Which is the most he has taken since his first year starting. His wrs are mostly unknowns except DA who can't stay on the field. He has to try and make plays he normally wouldn't. Comp % second lowest ever, lowest QBR are not a coincidence.

Once again my original post was in response to the PM has had a garbage line comment. I never said Brady was better at getting the ball out quicker than Manning.

I don't agree that Manning had a garbage OL at all, so we agree there. Indy decided to put more money, more picks, more resources on offense over the years to maximize Peyton's ability, and it worked.

NE, who IMO is perhaps the best run franchise, best coached team in professional sports over the last 13 or so years, put more $ and resources into their defense and OL than they did WR. They honestly lucked into a HOF QB in 6th rd pick Brady and never asked him to be to NE what Peyton was to INDY.

The 3 SuperBowls NE won with Brady were predicated on defense, a tough hard nosed running game with a top OL and with Faulk, Dillon and whatever RB they had.... and some clutch play from Brady. It was also predicated on being a great cold weather power team beating a finesse team built for and used to playing on a fast track in a dome stadium.....and it showed when all those playoff games were played in Foxboro, much more so than when Indy had home field advantage.

NE also had some damn good fortune. If not for the ridiculous tuck rule call when Brady clearly fumbled the ball after being sacked, Oakland goes on to the SuperBowl and NE doesn't win that first one.... and who knows what happens after that.

 

[WiseOlVol]

It may be silly but it's the argument most sports journalists subscribe to.

I don't think there is any doubt statistically and individually Manning is the best ever.

The media needs a Tom Brady to make the story interesting, just as they did with the Heisman.

They point to Brady's 3 SBs, which were all won by the NE kicker, and conveniently forget the 2 SB chokes vs. big underdog, 4th/5th seed, 9-7/10-6 Giants. And they have the gall to blame Welker for drops.

When NE wins, Brady gets the credit, when the Colts/Broncs lose, PM gets the blame.

Nobody talks about Brady's 62 Passer Rating (out of 158.3) vs. the Ravens in last year's AFC-CG.

 

[BadJerry20]

I don't agree that Manning had a garbage OL at all, so we agree there. Indy decided to put more money, more picks, more resources on offense over the years to maximize Peyton's ability, and it worked.

NE, who IMO is perhaps the best run franchise, best coached team in professional sports over the last 13 or so years, put more $ and resources into their defense and OL than they did WR. They honestly lucked into a HOF QB in 6th rd pick Brady and never asked him to be to NE what Peyton was to INDY.

The 3 SuperBowls NE won with Brady were predicated on defense, a tough hard nosed running game with a top OL and with Faulk, Dillon and whatever RB they had.... and some clutch play from Brady. It was also predicated on being a great cold weather power team beating a finesse team built for and used to playing on a fast track in a dome stadium.....and it showed when all those playoff games were played in Foxboro, much more so than when Indy had home field advantage.

NE also had some damn good fortune. If not for the ridiculous tuck rule call when Brady clearly fumbled the ball after being sacked, Oakland goes on to the SuperBowl and NE doesn't win that first one.... and who knows what happens after that.

I agree with this and said as much earlier. One could argue some of PMs stats are aided by the way the Colts built their team, while costing him multiple titles. Brady probably would have had better numbers but less SBs had NE built their team the same way.

 

[BadJerry20]

Agreed. Unless there is a truly impressive performance by a player on the winning team it defaults to the QB.

Manning's SB MVP is probably the most unimpressive individual honor on his resume.

One guy was Super Bowl brilliance.

 

[WiseOlVol]

Tom Brady vs. Peyton Manning: Who Is the Better Quarterback All-Time? | Bleacher Report

It's Manning, as between these two.

 

[WiseOlVol]

Agreed. Unless there is a truly impressive performance by a player on the winning team it defaults to the QB.

Manning's SB MVP is probably the most unimpressive individual honor on his resume.

Warner threw for about 460, and clowned Brady's 133.

Ty Law picked Warner twice and was the real MVP.

 

[WiseOlVol]

Manning has great offensive weapons, but apart from Robert Mathis and Dwight Freeney, his defense hasn't been much to write home about over the course of his time in Indy and now Denver. That has more to do with is wins and losses than his own performances.

It is proven when you look at their individual stats in the playoffs. Manning is better in the playoffs than Brady. In fact, in their careers, they have faced common opponents in the playoffs 4 times. In EVERY season that has happened, Manning outperformed Brady. Even against the only opponent where the Patriots won and the Colts lost, Manning was better than Brady. Here you are:

2007 Playoffs vs. San Diego Chargers (Patriots won, Colts lost):
Manning: 33/48 68.75% 402 yards 3 TDs 2 INTs 97.7 Rating
Brady: 22/33 66.67% 209 yards 2 TDs 3 INTs 66.4 Rating

2009 Playoffs vs. Baltimore Ravens (Patriots Lost, Colts won):
Manning: 30/44 68.18% 246 yards 2 TDs 1INT 87.9 Rating
Brady: 23/42 54.76% 154 yards 2 TDs 3 INTs 49.1 Rating

2010 Playoffs vs New York Jets (Patriots and Colts both lost):
Manning: 18/26 69.23% 225 yards 1TD 0 INTs 108.7 Rating
Brady: 29/45 64.44% 299 yards 2TD 1INT 89 Rating

2012 Playoffs vs Baltimore Ravens (Patriots and Denver both lost):
Manning: 28/43 65.12% 290 yards 3TDs 2INTs 88.3 Rating
Brady: 29/54 53.70% 320 yards 1TD 2INTs 62.3 Rating

Overall, Manning has a better playoff Passer Rating than Brady. I find it absurd that wins and losses are all that people consider when picking the better quarterback. Last season, the Patriots were shut out of the second half at home against the Ravens that needed overtime to beat the Broncos. Does the Patriots beating Houston a week earlier make Brady a better Quarterback than Manning? I don't think any reasonable person would say that.

 

[hndog609]

I find it absurd that wins and losses are all that people consider when picking the better quarterback.

Honestly WOV I think it's mostly that wins/losses/championships are the easiest to quantify and remember. In absolute fairness that has some merit in the sense that it IS what people find easiest to digest and recall. That it's the simplest method of rating someone doesn't make it the most accurate of course.

Anyway, I'm still of the school that beyond a point truly meaningful comparison is simply lost in the variables.

 

[WiseOlVol]

Is greatness judged by regular season records and stats?

Manning is better in the playoffs than Brady. In fact, in their careers, they have faced common opponents in the playoffs 4 times. In EVERY season that has happened, Manning outperformed Brady. Even against the only opponent where the Patriots won and the Colts lost, Manning was better than Brady. Here you are:

2007 Playoffs vs. San Diego Chargers (Patriots won, Colts lost):
Manning: 33/48 68.75% 402 yards 3 TDs 2 INTs 97.7 Rating
Brady: 22/33 66.67% 209 yards 2 TDs 3 INTs 66.4 Rating

2009 Playoffs vs. Baltimore Ravens (Patriots Lost, Colts won):
Manning: 30/44 68.18% 246 yards 2 TDs 1INT 87.9 Rating
Brady: 23/42 54.76% 154 yards 2 TDs 3 INTs 49.1 Rating

2010 Playoffs vs New York Jets (Patriots and Colts both lost):
Manning: 18/26 69.23% 225 yards 1TD 0 INTs 108.7 Rating
Brady: 29/45 64.44% 299 yards 2TD 1INT 89 Rating

2012 Playoffs vs Baltimore Ravens (Patriots and Denver both lost):
Manning: 28/43 65.12% 290 yards 3TDs 2INTs 88.3 Rating
Brady: 29/54 53.70% 320 yards 1TD 2INTs 62.3 Rating

Overall, Manning has a better playoff Passer Rating than Brady. I find it absurd that wins and losses are all that people consider when picking the better quarterback. Last season, the Patriots were shut out of the second half at home against the Ravens that needed overtime to beat the Broncos. Does the Patriots beating Houston a week earlier make Brady a better Quarterback than Manning? I don't think any reasonable person would say that

 

[WiseOlVol]

Honestly WOV I think it's mostly that wins/losses/championships are the easiest to quantify and remember. In absolute fairness that has some merit in the sense that it IS what people find easiest to digest and recall. That it's the simplest method of rating someone doesn't make it the most accurate of course.

Anyway, I'm still of the school that beyond a point truly meaningful comparison is simply lost in the variables.

Does anyone know, without research, the 1st player to win 4 SB rings?

I do. He started but isn't on anyone's list as the greatest TE of all time. But he was there when the rings were handed out. Marv Fleming (Packers an Dolphins).

 

[Volosaurus rex]

I don't agree that Manning had a garbage OL at all, so we agree there. Indy decided to put more money, more picks, more resources on offense over the years to maximize Peyton's ability, and it worked.

NE, who IMO is perhaps the best run franchise, best coached team in professional sports over the last 13 or so years, put more $ and resources into their defense and OL than they did WR. They honestly lucked into a HOF QB in 6th rd pick Brady and never asked him to be to NE what Peyton was to INDY.

The 3 SuperBowls NE won with Brady were predicated on defense, a tough hard nosed running game with a top OL and with Faulk, Dillon and whatever RB they had.... and some clutch play from Brady. It was also predicated on being a great cold weather power team beating a finesse team built for and used to playing on a fast track in a dome stadium.....and it showed when all those playoff games were played in Foxboro, much more so than when Indy had home field advantage.

NE also had some damn good fortune. If not for the ridiculous tuck rule call when Brady clearly fumbled the ball after being sacked, Oakland goes on to the SuperBowl and NE doesn't win that first one.... and who knows what happens after that.

Bingo. Even at that, the Patriots were not dominant in any of their Super Bowl victories; the margin of victory in each of them was exactly three points. You don't need a great quarterback to win a Super Bowl; sometimes a good QB isn't even a necessity. What you do need is a strong defense. I haven't done an exhaustive analysis, but the following Super Bowl winners, regardless of quarterback play or surrounding offensive personnel, finished in at least the top quartile (and usually, much better) in scoring defense:

1966 Green Bay 1st (163 pts., 14-game regular season until 1978)
1967 Green Bay 3rd (209 pts.)
1969 Kansas City 1st (in AFL with 177 pts.; would have been 2nd if NFL and AFL had been merged that year)
1972 Miami 1st (171 pts.)
1973 Miami 1st (150 pts.)
1974 Pittsburgh 2nd (189 pts.)
1975 Pittsburgh 2nd (162 pts.)
1978 Pittsburgh 1st (195 pts.)
1979 Pittsburgh 7th (262 pts.)

1981 San Francisco 2nd (250 pts.)
1982 Washington 1st (128 pts. in a strike-shortened, nine-game season)
1984 San Francisco 1st (227 pts.)
1985 Chicago 1st (198 pts.)
1986 New York Giants 2nd (236 pts.)
1987 Washington 6th (285 points)
1988 San Francisco 8th (294 pts.)
1989 San Francisco 3rd (253 pts.)

1990 New York Giants 1st (211 pts.)
1991 Washington 2nd (224 pts.)
1992 Dallas 5th (243 pts.)
1993 Dallas 2nd (229 pts.)
1994 San Francisco 6th (296 points)
1995 Dallas 3rd (291 pts.)
1996 Green Bay 1st (210 pts.)
1999 St. Louis 4th (242 pts.)

2000 Baltimore Ravens 1st (165 pts.)
2001 New England 6th (272 pts.)
2002 Tampa Bay 1st (196 pts.)
2003 New England 1st (238 pts.)
2004 New England 2nd (260 pts.)
2005 Pittsburgh 4th (258 pts.)
2008 Pittsburgh 1st (223 pts.)
2010 Green Bay 2nd (240 pts.)

There probably are additional examples which support this predictive model. However, 33 Super Bowl-winning teams, ones with highly variable levels of quarterback play, would strongly urge me, if I was an NFL owner or General Manager, to devote my resources, first and foremost, to building a rock-ribbed defense. If you are going to use a single predictor for success in the Super Bowl, mine would be scoring defense.

 

[WiseOlVol]

Points are valid to me. Emmit's in the hof for what he did, not what the team did

Jimmy Johnson's Dallas teams vs. same era Detroit teams?

What? Compare the OLines and passing games. ESmith might not be HOF had he gone to Detroit.

 

[WiseOlVol]

funny that it always seems to be about his defense, and never his picks or overthrown passes.

interesting.

Against the Ravens in last year's playoffs, Manning had the game iced until the Den Safety made the dumbest mistake in history, allowing the WR to get behind him and tie the game.

Manning's PR was 88. The next week, Brady's was 62 vs. the same Ravens.

 

[KBVol]

I agree with this and said as much earlier. One could argue some of PMs stats are aided by the way the Colts built their team, while costing him multiple titles. Brady probably would have had better numbers but less SBs had NE built their team the same way.

Can't disagree. I will offer this though. The year NE brought in Randy Moss where he set the td record for WRs and Brady had 50 tds passing, we kind of got a glimpse of what that looked like for NE. They set records and got to a Super Bowl, but fell short of expectations by losing that SuperBowl to the Giants.

I'll also say that while Manning has had more WR talent than Brady over the years, he never had anyone remotely as talented as Randy Moss. Harrison was a 5'11 175lb quick guy who ran premise routes but who also required precise passing on Manning's part to be as successful as he was. Reggie Wayne was the 6th WR taken the year he came out, not a speed guy, 6'0 tall, great hands.....but make no mistake.... neither was in Moss' league from a physical or athletic standpoint. I would argue that Manning made them much more than they made Manning. Would anybody know who Brandon Stokley, Dallas Clark or Austin Collie are if they hadn't played with Peyton? Doubtful.

As I say all this I'm not trying to disparage Brady in any way. Dude is an all time great IMO. He's a clutch performer and a great winning QB who has done great things with some WRs who aren't exactly going to the Hall of Fame. I don't subscribe to idea that Peyton is great while Brady just sucks. That's ridiculous. Both guys are all time greats and first ballot hall of famers

 

[BenGrimm]

NE also had some damn good fortune. If not for the ridiculous tuck rule call when Brady clearly fumbled the ball after being sacked, Oakland goes on to the SuperBowl and NE doesn't win that first one.... and who knows what happens after that.

I don't know that Oakland would have gone onto the SB as that was the divisional round but yes they definitely had some luck with the tuck rule and Vinitari making a 40 some odd FG in a blizzard.

Also, I mentioned it earlier (maybe in another thread), In that same playoff run Brady was injured and Bledsoe won the AFC CG at Pittsburgh to get them to the SB.

Then as Wise pointed out Brady only passed for 133 yards in the SB. Hard to credit him with greatness on that particular SB run and victory (not to take anything away from his next two).

 

[WiseOlVol]

Brady has two Superbowl losses now so Montana is basically alone if championships are the determining factor. Montana also never threw an interception in a Superbowl and won two titles without Rice. If you needed a QB for one game with everything on the line it would probably be Montana. If a career body of work is the criteria then the greatest will be Manning in my opinion when all is said and done. He is the best in the league right now so he is not done yet.

Bart Starr has 5 NFL Championships: 1961-62, 1965-66-67.

 

[Wylo]

Throw any stats you want. Manning underperforms in big games, typically.

He compiles stats. He deserves all the praise that he gets.

But in the playoffs he tightens up. He chokes. I think he tries to do too much.

He should have beaten the Ravens last year. He did his part to get the lead late, but the defense blew it.

He had another chance in ot and choked with the int.

Hopefully this year he keeps it together.

 

[KBVol]

I don't know that Oakland would have gone onto the SB as that was the divisional round but yes they definitely had some luck with the tuck rule and Vinitari making a 40 some odd FG in a blizzard.

Also, I mentioned it earlier (maybe in another thread), In that same playoff run Brady was injured and Bledsoe won the AFC CG at Pittsburgh to get them to the SB.

Then as Wise pointed out Brady only passed for 133 yards in the SB. Hard to credit him with greatness on that particular SB run and victory (not to take anything away from his next two).

Brady's a great QB and NE doesn't win any if those SBs without him. I just believe the team was constructed in a way that didn't rely on him as much to be able to win. He certainly played his role to perfection however..... especially in the clutch.

 

[Wylo]

Against the Ravens in last year's playoffs, Manning had the game iced until the Den Safety made the dumbest mistake in history, allowing the WR to get behind him and tie the game.

Manning's PR was 88. The next week, Brady's was 62 vs. the same Ravens.

Remind me again how the Ravens got the ball in OT?

Manning INT, just in case you forgot.

Manning did enough to win, but his defense choked away regulation. Manning choked away the OT.

 

[Thrasher865]

I love watching Peyton as much as anyone on here, but you cannot make a rational argument that he is the best considering his record against Brady and how many rings they have in comparison. Now, If he gets a SB this year the whole dynamic changes, but until then one can rationally argue that he isn't.

Not trying to be a jerk, but just saying it how it is.

Put Manning on a Belichick coached team and give Brady to Dungy.

 

[WiseOlVol]

68% 11-0 tds ints 120 rating...dominance...

Compare the HOFers on Montana's 49ers vs. PM's Colts.

Colts: Marshall Faulk (played with PM 2 years)

49ers:

Fred Dean (1981-1985)
Ronnie Lott (1981-1990)
Jerry Rice (1985-2000)
Bill Walsh (1979-1988)
Steve Young (1987-1999)

 

[Wylo]

Compare the HOFers on Montana's 49ers vs. PM's Colts.

Colts: Marshall Faulk (played with PM 2 years)

49ers:

Fred Dean (1981-1985)
Ronnie Lott (1981-1990)
Jerry Rice (1985-2000)
Bill Walsh (1979-1988)
Steve Young (1987-1999)

Nice save by removing Prime Time. And are you really using the back up quarterback in an argument about Manning/Montana? ?

 

[WiseOlVol]

Bradshaw had 9 guys go to the HOF from his Pittsburgh teams.

Mel Blount (1970-1983)
Joe Greene (1969-1981)
Jack Ham (1971-1982)
Franco Harris (1972-1983)
Jack Lambert (1974-1984)
Chuck Noll (1969-1991)
John Stallworth (1974-1987)
Lynn Swann (1974-1982)
Mike Webster (1974-1988)

 

[Wylo]

Bradshaw had 9 guys go to the HOF from his Pittsburgh teams.

Mel Blount (1970-1983)
Joe Greene (1969-1981)
Jack Ham (1971-1982)
Franco Harris (1972-1983)
Jack Lambert (1974-1984)
Chuck Noll (1969-1991)
John Stallworth (1974-1987)
Lynn Swann (1974-1982)
Mike Webster (1974-1988)

You keep showing teams from the pre-salary cap era.

Of course they are gonna have more stars.