Politics aside, tonight's speech

#126
#126
lawgator1 said:
Seriously, everyone drop their agendas for just a moment.

I saw a headline that said that tonight the country needs much more than inspiration, it needs information. Details on the plan. Facts on what will be done with the money.

I think that is absolutely right as defenders of the plan say it saves jobs and critics deride it as pork, but no one, on either side, has made a solid case in terms of actual proof for their respective claims.

The burden is squarely on Obama tonight to get into facts and figures, not goals and hypotheticals. Same can be said for Jindhal afterwards. Going to be interesting.
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i've come to the conclusion they all suck.
 
#128
#128
TennTradition said:
I think that everyone having a HS degree only makes it worthless from the standpoint of it being a metric by which to assess one's employment potential. There are, of course, jobs that require little to no training - but I think that enhancing the skills (not necessarily "academic" education, but that is included) of a workforce allows for the human capital to expand the economy.
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but there are so many jobs (and even some very well paying ones) that are on site training and two-four years of collegiate training goes out the window on day one. Why waste money? oooh, I know. so big government can get their hands on it.
 
#129
#129
And I'm sure the guys that can't motivate themselves to succeed in college when they're paying their own way (and creating their own debt) will suddenly start making A's and B's when Uncle Sam foots the bill.
 
#130
#130
Let me be the first to say, I know jack about politics. I do know what I believe in FWIW and I support that. I have never, nor will ever be, a down the ticket democrat. I didn't vote while I was in the Marines, because I felt it was my duty as a United States Marine to remain impartial. This was my first presidential election that I voted in, and I was moved by what Obama said. So yes, I did hear his speech a little more, because, believe it or not, I have begun to become a little skeptical of his agenda, but from what I heard tonight, I stand behind him. If it turns out that these plans to create jobs, increase education, and improve healthcare take a dump; I won't hesitate to change my view.

Additionaly, I think it is absolutely appalling the saying that my supporting Obama somehow discredits my service to this country. (I know you didn't say this BPV, and I am not accusing you of that) I can't believe anyone would say that though, as I have pretty much been told that before.
 
#131
#131
Deport the illegals and it will fix a large part of the problem,..our gov't has done it 3 different administrations and it worked. (Hoover, Truman, and Ike)
 
#134
#134
volfanbill said:
but there are so many jobs (and even some very well paying ones) that are on site training and two-four years of collegiate training goes out the window on day one. Why waste money? oooh, I know. so big government can get their hands on it.
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Where do we stop educating? What is the "right" level to educate/train one's citizenry to maximize the growth of the economy? Growth economics would say that providing trained human capital is one of the key inputs to economic growth...maybe that idea is wrong....but it resonates with me. Why teach people to read when you don't need to be able to read in order to hold up a sign that someone gives you? Is it important that they be able to do basic math?

I agree with your points at some level - you can certainly over-educate a populace. But, if a large component of this "vision" is to enhance trade school or skills-focused associate's degrees, then I see this as a doable and net-positive benefit to the economy. I'm sure that plenty of people though that "requiring" a high school education was stupid and a waste of time when these people could otherwise be participating in the economy through earning a wage - but I would say that this has been a pretty positive influence on our economy.
 
#135
#135
TennTradition said:
Where do we stop educating? What is the "right" level to educate/train one's citizenry to maximize the growth of the economy? Growth economics would say that providing trained human capital is one of the key inputs to economic growth...maybe that idea is wrong....but it resonates with me. Why teach people to read when you don't need to be able to read in order to hold up a sign that someone gives you? Is it important that they be able to do basic math?

I agree with your points at some level - you can certainly over-educate a populace. But, if a large component of this "vision" is to enhance trade school or skills-focused associate's degrees, then I see this as a doable and net-positive benefit to the economy. I'm sure that plenty of people though that "requiring" a high school education was stupid and a waste of time when these people could otherwise be participating in the economy through earning a wage - but I would say that this has been a pretty positive influence on our economy.
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The Indian model of up or out works for me.
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#136
#136
BigPapaVol said:
The Indian model of up or out works for me.
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I wasn't familiar with the model before your post, but I have an idea based on the name. So, they answer the "how far do you educate" based on performance metrics...you keep on going until you don't perform?
 
#137
#137
TennTradition said:
I wasn't familiar with the model before your post, but I have an idea based on the name. So, they answer the "how far do you educate" based on performance metrics...you keep on going until you don't perform?
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Exactly. You continue slicing off the top and take them higher. Take the rest and tailor their completion on the level they achieved.

Alas, that would require us telling some that they aren't going to be thoracic surgeons.
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#138
#138
TennTradition said:
Where do we stop educating? What is the "right" level to educate/train one's citizenry to maximize the growth of the economy? Growth economics would say that providing trained human capital is one of the key inputs to economic growth...maybe that idea is wrong....but it resonates with me. Why teach people to read when you don't need to be able to read in order to hold up a sign that someone gives you? Is it important that they be able to do basic math?

I agree with your points at some level - you can certainly over-educate a populace. But, if a large component of this "vision" is to enhance trade school or skills-focused associate's degrees, then I see this as a doable and net-positive benefit to the economy. I'm sure that plenty of people though that "requiring" a high school education was stupid and a waste of time when these people could otherwise be participating in the economy through earning a wage - but I would say that this has been a pretty positive influence on our economy.
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This reminds me of the movie "Idiocracy."

Yes, I know it's a horrible movie.

But the message in it is that America is becoming so dumbed down that eventually we're going to be a nation of blubbering idiots if something isnt done.

Lowering standards so everyone gets what would become nothing more than a piece of paper is not the answer. I think we can all agree on that.

But higher education is imperitave to a sucessful civilization.
 
#139
#139
Volingatorland said:
This reminds me of the movie "Idiocracy."

Yes, I know it's a horrible movie.

But the message in it is that America is becoming so dumbed down that eventually we're going to be a nation of blubbering idiots if something isnt done.

Lowering standards so everyone gets what would become nothing more than a piece of paper is not the answer. I think we can all agree on that.

But higher education is imperitave to a sucessful civilization.
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The Romans disagree.
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#140
#140
BigPapaVol said:
The Romans disagree.
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while I'm not disagreeing, I fear this thread has just taken a turn for the worse. Perhaps being so late, I will be wrong, but I fear 12 hours from now we will be 20 more pages deep from this statement.
 
#141
#141
volfanbill said:
while I'm not disagreeing, I fear this thread has just taken a turn for the worse. Perhaps being so late, I will be wrong, but I fear 12 hours from now we will be 20 more pages deep from this statement.
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they all do eventually.
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#142
#142
kptvol said:
And I'm sure the guys that can't motivate themselves to succeed in college when they're paying their own way (and creating their own debt) will suddenly start making A's and B's when Uncle Sam foots the bill.
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i dont understand how someone who puts themself through school could waste it by failing. i havent missed a class in my two years in college and hold down a 3.6
 
#146
#146
BigPapaVol said:
The Romans disagree.
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So you're saying that there was no higher education in Rome? That's funny.

Where do you think all the architects, philosophers, mathematicians, sculptors, painters, and bankers came from? They were just born with those skills? No. They were taught from the remains of the library at Alexandria, and they learned these things by learning the teachings of the Greeks. While it is not the form of higher education you think of today, there was, in fact, higher education in both the Roman Empire and the Roman Republic.
 
#147
#147
volfanbill said:
but I'm sure you've seen those that do waste it then right?
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im not saying this just to disprove the point, but i honestly with my hand on the bible do not know of anyone of friends who are putting themselves through school and are wasting it. its like an investmen, u wouldnt invest money into something and turn around and make sure it fails would you, of course not, ppl who screw off in college are ppl whose mommies and daddies go back into debt to put their kids through school and alot of athletes. Thats what i see around me.
 
#148
#148
motown vol 09 said:
i dont understand how someone who puts themself through school could waste it by failing. i havent missed a class in my two years in college and hold down a 3.6
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and for the record Jim Harrick doesnt teach any of my classes and im not enrolled in underwater fire prevention 250
 
#149
#149
motown vol 09 said:
and for the record Jim Harrick doesnt teach any of my classes and im not enrolled in underwater fire prevention 250
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nicely played.

I've seen it a lot though. Friends just lazy. They spend too much time partying and too little time doing the work.

But you're right, the ones getting a free ride from either mommy and daddy or Uncle Same are much more likely to fall off.
 
#150
#150
Volingatorland said:
So you're saying that there was no higher education in Rome? That's funny.

Where do you think all the architects, philosophers, mathematicians, sculptors, painters, and bankers came from? They were just born with those skills? No. They were taught from the remains of the library at Alexandria, and they learned these things by learning the teachings of the Greeks. While it is not the form of higher education you think of today, there was, in fact, higher education in both the Roman Empire and the Roman Republic.
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I assume you're going to tell me about how the education of the general populace made a great civilization, as I was under the impression that we were talking about the masses. Clearly the burgoise of every great civilization was educated, but that's nothing new. What does that have to so with the general populace?
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