Praying Before Game WILL NOT BE STOPPED AT UT (merged)

[OWB]

Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord. -Psalms 33:12

America is heading down hill and we are becoming a nation that refutes the Lord; Coincidence?

i think it has more to do with a decrease in education and an increase of ignorance.

 

[slammingseth]

Since we're doing bible verses w Psalms let's focus on the embarrassing ones...like this one...since you guys want god in the stadium and he is repulsed by the handicapped why risk offending him?

Leviticus 21

16 The LORD said to Moses, 17 “Say to Aaron: ‘For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. 18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, 20 or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles.

It is rather obvious that you did a quick search to find something in the Bible that you could use as counter argument/ way of making God look bad. You, however, missed the context of that passage which was outlining the steps of priest hood especially that of the lineage of Aaron.

 

[Nashvol2]

Which I personally agree with, but I would never try to force my beliefs on anyone else.

I love god, and appreciate everything he has done for me in my life.. the blessings he has bestowed on me in my wife and children.

But I would never dream of trying to convert someone from another religion, I would never dream of being one of these idiots standing at a traffic light with a bible in my hands yelling at people and trying to hand out propaganda. That type of stuff is everything that is wrong with religion.

I would disagree with you there. Although I have never stood on a sidewalk and preached the gospel I have respect for those that do. It's typically out of the love for others. Now, I have seen some who approach it the wrong way, screaming how everyone is going to hell and such. In fact, i've encountered that on campus at UT and I made sure that I let that person know that passing blanket judgment on a group of people walking by is not only antithetical to his cause, it is not biblical.

 

[PowerSweep]

Courts rule on things all the time. The question is does it apply in this situation.

"Cheek cited a court ruling from the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals that specifically held that “nonsectarian prayer at public university events does not violate the First Amendment.”

6th circuit has ruled a generic (no god, jc, etc) prayer is ok and ut has been violating that anyway but this was ruled on by the supremes in 2000:

Santa Fe Independent School Dist. v. Doe, 530 U.S. 290 (2000), was a case heard before the United States Supreme Court. It ruled that a policy permitting student-led, student-initiated prayer at high school football games violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. Oral arguments were heard March 29, 2000. The court announced its decision on June 19, holding the policy unconstitutional in a 6-3 decision.

---Of course until you have a lawsuit in front of you it's a free bite at the apple...highly doubtful they spend a lot of $$ on something supremes have ruled on.

 

[ukvols]

only in degree...we don't let people vote on rights and you don't get to decide whether the imposition is enough to justify it or not...

unconstitutional is unconstitutional. Period.

FYI - the use of "you" in your posts like that is what makes debates like this personal. I'd rather stick to our opinions of the issues.

I would love to see how many people attending these games wants the prayer to be stopped, even if the vote has no bearing on the ultimate decision.

Also, this organization, the Freedom From Religion Foundation, is not without its own "religious" beliefs. Their goal with this isn't to protect everyone's constitutional rights. It's about spreading their own agenda.

Their agenda: One of their stated purposes is to educate on nontheism. Their website describe its members as atheists, agnostics, and skeptics of any pedigree.

This feels like this organization's latest effort to impose nontheism everywhere possible.

 

[Nashvol2]

6th circuit has ruled a generic (no god, jc, etc) prayer is ok and ut has been violating that anyway but this was ruled on by the supremes in 2000:

Santa Fe Independent School Dist. v. Doe, 530 U.S. 290 (2000), was a case heard before the United States Supreme Court. It ruled that a policy permitting student-led, student-initiated prayer at high school football games violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. Oral arguments were heard March 29, 2000. The court announced its decision on June 19, holding the policy unconstitutional in a 6-3 decision.

---Of course until you have a lawsuit in front of you it's a free bite at the apple...highly doubtful they spend a lot of $$ on something supremes have ruled on.

I fully understand all that you have written. Not only in this post but others on this issue and those concerning religion, Christianity, God, Creation and the whole bit. I just disagree with your opinions and any ruling that violates the constitution as I interpret it.

 

[PowerSweep]

It is rather obvious that you did a quick search to find something in the Bible that you could use as counter argument/ way of making God look bad. You, however, missed the context of that passage which was outlining the steps of priest hood especially that of the lineage of Aaron.

so god's not too hip on people who are lame or have a flat nose or a blemish being priests...what a guy, eh?

 

[PowerSweep]

I fully understand all that you have written. Not only in this post but others on this issue and those concerning religion, Christianity, God, Creation and the whole bit. I just disagree with your opinions and any ruling that violates the constitution as I interpret it.

But you don't get a vote...neither do I. Only 9 people do. It's settled.

 

[pattiycake]

so god's not too hip on people who are lame or have a flat nose or a blemish being priests...what a guy, eh?

Why are you so filled with hate for a God which you say doesn't even exist?

 

[ukvols]

Since we're doing bible verses w Psalms let's focus on the embarrassing ones...like this one...since you guys want god in the stadium and he is repulsed by the handicapped why risk offending him?

Leviticus 21

16 The LORD said to Moses, 17 “Say to Aaron: ‘For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. 18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, 20 or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles.

I take it this is a go-to excerpt from the Old Testament. I, personally, do not believe God is "repulsed" by the disabled. And, I don't care to debate that issue any further.

 

[PowerSweep]

FYI - the use of "you" in your posts like that is what makes debates like this personal. I'd rather stick to our opinions of the issues.

I would love to see how many people attending these games wants the prayer to be stopped, even if the vote has no bearing on the ultimate decision.

Also, this organization, the Freedom From Religion Foundation, is not without its own "religious" beliefs. Their goal with this isn't to protect everyone's constitutional rights. It's about spreading their own agenda.

Their agenda: One of their stated purposes is to educate on nontheism. Their website describe its members as atheists, agnostics, and skeptics of any pedigree.

This feels like this organization's latest effort to impose nontheism everywhere possible.

you is generic...my best guess is something like 2/3 would keep the prayer vs moment of silence in a vote if those were the 2 options.

 

[Nashvol2]

But you don't get a vote...neither do I. Only 9 people do. It's settled.

Well that's not exactly true. I do get a vote. I vote in every election.

The Chancellor also gets to decide the fate of the University as it pertains to this issue. If he and his lawyers thinks that this ruling doesn't apply to the University in this situation than who am I to stand in there way.

Besides, nothing is final. Rulings by the Supreme court can be overturned, new legislation can be drafted, and the constitution can be amended.

 

[PowerSweep]

Why are you so filled with hate for a God which you say doesn't even exist?

I don't...how can I hate something that doesn't exist?

I am merely pointing out this character in a book, which you believe to be a real entity and which I believe to be imaginary is, by any modern definition, a very insecure, cruel, and unloving being.

So it doesn't really matter that I don't think things like the sick practical joke of Isaac and Abraham didn't really happen...you do.

 

[WhiteRhino]

I shall be exalted amongst the heatherns, I shall be exatled in the earth....:thumbsup:

 

[PowerSweep]

Well that's not exactly true. I do get a vote. I vote in every election.

The Chancellor also gets to decide the fate of the University as it pertains to this issue. If he and his lawyers thinks that this ruling doesn't apply to the University in this situation than who am I to stand in there way.

Besides, nothing is final. Rulings by the Supreme court can be overturned, new legislation can be drafted, and the constitution can be amended.

Rulings like this are almost never overturned, especially 12 years later and the constitution isn't going to be changed over this. We care deeply about it in the south, but out west or in NH/VT or AK/HI, they couldn't care less. The Cal Berkeley fans were pretty shocked to see it when they came here.

Like I said, it costs nothing right now to keep it and in fact garners him a lot of positive support since I would be surprised if a solid majority didn't want this to stay. I guess we'll see if they fight it after the lawsuit that is sure to come. I doubt it.

 

[ukvols]

I don't...how can I hate something that doesn't exist?

I am merely pointing out this character in a book, which you believe to be a real entity and which I believe to be imaginary is, by any modern definition, a very insecure, cruel, and unloving being.

So it doesn't really matter that I don't think things like the sick practical joke of Isaac and Abraham didn't really happen...you do.

Makes sense. I wouldn't expect an atheist to interpret God as an imaginary loving being. That would make it harder to be offended.

 

[pattiycake]

I don't...how can I hate something that doesn't exist?

I am merely pointing out this character in a book, which you believe to be a real entity and which I believe to be imaginary is, by any modern definition, a very insecure, cruel, and unloving being.

So it doesn't really matter that I don't think things like the sick practical joke of Isaac and Abraham didn't really happen...you do.

You can paint the picture any way you want to but I like others have read all the things you have posted and you and I both know that you have quoted scripture out of context as well as used an interpretation to scripture which suits your argument. It is very obvious from reading your posts that there is hate and disdain not only for God but for anyone who believes in Him.

You have insulted people who have treated you with respect even though their views differed from yours. I respect you as a person and that you have the right to choose in what or who you choose to believe in. Why is it so hard for you to do the same? Hate? Fear? What is it?

 

[ukvols]

Reposting part of my earlier post, so it's not missed...

The Freedom From Religion Foundation is not without its own "religious" beliefs. Their goal with this isn't to protect everyone's constitutional rights. It's about spreading their own agenda.

Their agenda: One of their stated purposes is to educate on nontheism. Their website describe its members as atheists, agnostics, and skeptics of any pedigree.

This feels like this organization's latest effort to impose nontheism everywhere possible.

 

[slammingseth]

I don't...how can I hate something that doesn't exist?

I am merely pointing out this character in a book, which you believe to be a real entity and which I believe to be imaginary is, by any modern definition, a very insecure, cruel, and unloving being.

So it doesn't really matter that I don't think things like the sick practical joke of Isaac and Abraham didn't really happen...you do.

You do not have the capacity to critically think, do you? Explain how such an intricate being as the human body is functioning and has the ability to reason the way it does? Also, explain how sexual reproduction (or asexual for that matter) works as beautifully and perfectly as it does? Why is there only two sexes of human beings? Why does the body's of each sex match up so perfect?

 

[ukvols]

I think Freedom From Religion Foundation cares a lot more about ridding the world of public displays of faith than it does about protecting anyone's constitutional rights.

 

[Nashvol2]

I don't...how can I hate something that doesn't exist?

I am merely pointing out this character in a book, which you believe to be a real entity and which I believe to be imaginary is, by any modern definition, a very insecure, cruel, and unloving being.

So it doesn't really matter that I don't think things like the sick practical joke of Isaac and Abraham didn't really happen...you do.

I've got some good friends from college who would and probably have made the same arguments as you do. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if you were one of them. One is now a believer in Christ and another a is believer in a God. People's beliefs change over a lifetime of experience. There's still one of my good friends that sounds alot like you. I think about and pray for him constantly. The only reason is because I love the guy and my soul feels for his soul.

I could never understand how someone would be offended if another person shares there experience with God and their salvation story with another person. Because the only reason to share it is out of love. And I love because Christ first loved me.

Hope you guys have a good night and if nothing else, it's been a good hearty debate.

 

[Duo]

Sure is football in here.

 

[Morpheus]

You can paint the picture any way you want to but I like others have read all the things you have posted and you and I both know that you have quoted scripture out of context as well as used an interpretation to scripture which suits your argument. It is very obvious from reading your posts that there is hate and disdain not only for God but for anyone who believes in Him.

You have insulted people who have treated you with respect even though their views differed from yours. I respect you as a person and that you have the right to choose in what or who you choose to believe in. Why is it so hard for you to do the same? Hate? Fear? What is it?

Not fair, IMO. Powersweep has shown no sign of hatred or insults. He seems to be completely logical.

 

[ukvols]

You can paint the picture any way you want to but I like others have read all the things you have posted and you and I both know that you have quoted scripture out of context as well as used an interpretation to scripture which suits your argument. It is very obvious from reading your posts that there is hate and disdain not only for God but for anyone who believes in Him.

You have insulted people who have treated you with respect even though their views differed from yours. I respect you as a person and that you have the right to choose in what or who you choose to believe in. Why is it so hard for you to do the same? Hate? Fear? What is it?

Fear.

If there is no God, then we all have nothing to look forward to or fear after death.

Some atheists are probably quite insecure in their beliefs, because if the majority that believes in a God is right, then, ...

So, the sight of religion may contribute to the insecurity of some atheists. So, they want to rid the world of religion everywhere they have to see it. So, we have organizations like the Freedom From Religion Foundation imposing their beliefs on others.

 

[PowerSweep]

You can paint the picture any way you want to but I like others have read all the things you have posted and you and I both know that you have quoted scripture out of context as well as used an interpretation to scripture which suits your argument. It is very obvious from reading your posts that there is hate and disdain not only for God but for anyone who believes in Him.

You have insulted people who have treated you with respect even though their views differed from yours. I respect you as a person and that you have the right to choose in what or who you choose to believe in. Why is it so hard for you to do the same? Hate? Fear? What is it?

Because you want to blast it over the loudspeaker. You say I have quoted things out of context and yet last night you admitted you found the Numbers passage troubling.

Give me a context since I take it out of context where the Isaac-Abraham sacrifice story can better be understood within the context of a loving god.

Hate? Why would I hate you? I (and others) in this thread have been told that I was going to hell, leading the destruction of this country, its values, eternal damnation, much worse in this thread. Haven't complained once. This is the grown up table.

But no I don't respect your beliefs any more than I respect those of say scientology or Islam or anything else supernatural. But your right to believe and worship as you wish? Fight like heck for that...you just can't do it in this arena.