Praying Before Game WILL NOT BE STOPPED AT UT (merged)

#1,201
#1,201
Orange_Crush:Jesus there is answering the Jews that wanted to kill him for "making himself as God." Jesus quoted Ps 82:7 as a response. Ps 82:7 calls the unjust judge of Israel "god's". This is a Hebrew word translated also as "judge" elsehwere in the OT (Exodus 21:6, 22:8). Note that both Exodus and Psalms 82 indicate that the unjust judges (gods) will die, so obviously the Bible wasn't comparing the gods (little g) to God (Big G).

The term judge/god (elohim) was used as a descriptive for one who was put in office to speak for God. These were arguments against those who were abusing that power.

So, what Jesus was saying here was: "You are called gods (as God). How much greater should I be viewed as God's messenger, with the miraculous signs that prove my office?"

That's one interpretation. Couple of things though...There are no capital letters in the hebrew language, and the word translated man, probably should be translated Adam. My interpretation..."you think you've already reached your full potential and evolved into deity, but you are just like the rest of us in this Arian age, fallen like Adam, mortal, subject to death".
 
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#1,202
#1,202
utvolkyle06 said:
Really, WOW the president of all americans is Muslum? Many times I have heard him say he is a Christian, maybe he is lying? I dont think so, but now that I think of it, does it matter? Christian, Muslum, Hindu, Catholic, Baptist, Jew. As long as they defend the constitiution, that is all I care about. :thumbsup:
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Yes, I voted for the Muslim guy in 2008...doesn't bother me any. Christian, Muslum, Hindu, Catholic, Baptist, Jew....they all fine. But absolutely, no Methodists!
 
#1,203
#1,203
Morpheus said:
Jesus there is answering the Jews that wanted to kill him for "making himself as God." Jesus quoted Ps 82:7 as a response. Ps 82:7 calls the unjust judge of Israel "god's". This is a Hebrew word translated also as "judge" elsehwere in the OT (Exodus 21:6, 22:8). Note that both Exodus and Psalms 82 indicate that the unjust judges (gods) will die, so obviously the Bible wasn't comparing the gods (little g) to God (Big G).

The term judge/god (elohim) was used as a descriptive for one who was put in office to speak for God. These were arguments against those who were abusing that power.

So, what Jesus was saying here was: "You are called gods (as God). How much greater should I be viewed as God's messenger, with the miraculous signs that prove my office?"

That's one interpretation. Couple of things though...There are no capital letters in the hebrew language, and the word translated man, probably should be translated Adam. My interpretation..."you think you've already reached your full potential and evolved into deity, but you are just like the rest of us in this Arian age, fallen like Adam, mortal, subject to death".
Click to expand...

I guess you could, except that's not what he said.

Literally, He said:

"I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?"


"Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came--and Scripture cannot be broken-- do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."

The story describes a literal series of actions taking place, and literal responses that pertains to the actions. It makes sense to interpret literally.

If you choose to interpret as allegory, obviously that's your prerogative. It puts you outside of orthodox Christianity, but I get the impression that's not an issue from your perspective. :)
 
#1,204
#1,204
Orange_Crush:Hebrews spoke of Christ literally as our mediator between God and man. Scripture extends this to say that there is only one mediator between God and Man, the man-God Jesus Christ. Christ, Himself, said that there is only one way to the Father, through Him.

The kingdom of God is within us. His Spirit has been left to indwell us. Jesus said that Spirit would flow from within us like torrents of "Living Water". (As such, in a way this makes each Christian the temple of God as Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians. But this doesn't change that the author of Hebrews described a literal heavenly temple, which the OT tabernacle was patterned off of.)

The church is left as God's kingdom of earth.

All this is church dogma, started by the founders of the faith. It served its purpose for it's day, but I do try to keep things in proper perspective. Jesus is a form of greater things to come, his age is coming to an end as he said it would. Follow the water bearer.
 
#1,205
#1,205
Oh lord. That's all we need on VolNation, people explaining to us what each scripture means, or what they were told it means, or what they were indoctrinated into it's meaning or their own meaning.

Hallelujah...Hallelujah....Hallelujah
 
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#1,207
#1,207
Morpheus said:
yes.

Edit: To clarify, I am a big fan of the Bible, but do not claim to be Christian. The Bible has many layers of spiritual truth, but its literal interpretation is only for children. JMO.
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saw the edit

:hi: i would agree with the general idea you're laying down...though admittedly, i did agree in a rather sarcastic way
 
#1,208
#1,208
Morpheus said:
Orange_Crush:Jesus there is answering the Jews that wanted to kill him for "making himself as God." Jesus quoted Ps 82:7 as a response. Ps 82:7 calls the unjust judge of Israel "god's". This is a Hebrew word translated also as "judge" elsehwere in the OT (Exodus 21:6, 22:8). Note that both Exodus and Psalms 82 indicate that the unjust judges (gods) will die, so obviously the Bible wasn't comparing the gods (little g) to God (Big G).

The term judge/god (elohim) was used as a descriptive for one who was put in office to speak for God. These were arguments against those who were abusing that power.

So, what Jesus was saying here was: "You are called gods (as God). How much greater should I be viewed as God's messenger, with the miraculous signs that prove my office?"

That's one interpretation. Couple of things though...There are no capital letters in the hebrew language, and the word translated man, probably should be translated Adam. My interpretation..."you think you've already reached your full potential and evolved into deity, but you are just like the rest of us in this Arian age, fallen like Adam, mortal, subject to death".
Click to expand...

Morpheus said:
Orange_Crush:Hebrews spoke of Christ literally as our mediator between God and man. Scripture extends this to say that there is only one mediator between God and Man, the man-God Jesus Christ. Christ, Himself, said that there is only one way to the Father, through Him.

The kingdom of God is within us. His Spirit has been left to indwell us. Jesus said that Spirit would flow from within us like torrents of "Living Water". (As such, in a way this makes each Christian the temple of God as Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians. But this doesn't change that the author of Hebrews described a literal heavenly temple, which the OT tabernacle was patterned off of.)

The church is left as God's kingdom of earth.

All this is church dogma, started by the founders of the faith. It served its purpose for it's day, but I do try to keep things in proper perspective. Jesus is a form of greater things to come, his age is coming to an end as he said it would. Follow the water bearer.
Click to expand...

I'll just leave it that you and I are obviously approaching this from two entirely different worldviews.

I am operating from a very un-postmodern approach that believes that there are objective truths, that those objective truths are able to to be ascertained from the historical writings of the Bible, and that the guys who wrote the Bible wrote what they intended those truths to be. I am also operating from a very strictly defined set of rules per proper hermeneutics and interpretation.

You seem to be coming at this from a very postmodern mindset that isn't necessarily seeking the intended objective truth, but instead "what it means to me".

That's cool. Worldviews are something we can agree to disagree on also. :good!:
 
#1,209
#1,209
utfantilidie said:
Oh lord. That's all we need on VolNation, people explaining to us what each scripture means, or what they were told it means, or what they were indoctrinated into it's meaning or their own meaning.

Hallelujah...Hallelujah....Hallelujah
Click to expand...

Or... Uh... What it says?
 
#1,210
#1,210
utfantilidie said:
Oh lord. That's all we need on VolNation, people explaining to us what each scripture means, or what they were told it means, or what they were indoctrinated into it's meaning or their own meaning.

Hallelujah...Hallelujah....Hallelujah
Click to expand...

I think its been pretty interesting....I'm interested in hearing the science or religion side of things.....if you don't want to participate in a thread....don't click on it.
 
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#1,211
#1,211
Never good business to talk religion in this setting. 4,000 people will have 4,000 different opinions.

Many people do not take kindly to people attacking their beliefs.

Pray or don't pray. Bow your head and sing to yourself. Who cares?

My God is just that. Mine.

You can have yours.
 
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#1,212
#1,212
Wylo said:
Never good business to talk religion in this setting. 4,000 people will have 4,000 different opinions.

Many people do not take kindly to people attacking their beliefs.

Pray or don't pray. Bow your head and sing to yourself. Who cares?

My God is just that. Mine.

You can have yours.
Click to expand...

What about the guy that has a God that told His followers to tell others about Him. Then is it OK for them to talk about it?
 
#1,213
#1,213
Orange_Crush said:
I guess you could, except that's not what he said.

Literally, He said:

"I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?"


"Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came--and Scripture cannot be broken-- do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."

The story describes a literal series of actions taking place, and literal responses that pertains to the actions. It makes sense to interpret literally.

If you choose to interpret as allegory, obviously that's your prerogative. It puts you outside of orthodox Christianity, but I get the impression that's not an issue from your perspective. :)
Click to expand...

I'm a little confused on where we differ here, sorry I'm trying to work between reading and responding. To clarify my most basic fundamental belief, the Bible contains many layers of spiritual truth. One can only comprehend that which he is capable based on his level of conscious perspective, but the literal interpretation is of little spiritual value, written for children as in fairy tales, or as described by one of its key figures, Paul, "milk" as for babes. I believe the figure known as Jesus filled the gap of time covering the past 2k+ years (Age of Pices), as others did before him. He is a form or image for our immature minds to focus on, like when Jacob had his livestock look at striped and spotted twigs while they ate. So in a way he IS our savior, just not in the literal way described in the bible. His role helped us take the next step in evolving the consciousness of the human race. Other will follow in the coming age.
 
#1,214
#1,214
Morpheus said:
I'm a little confused on where we differ here, sorry I'm trying to work between reading and responding. To clarify my most basic fundamental belief, the Bible contains many layers of spiritual truth. One can only comprehend that which he is capable based on his level of conscious perspective, but the literal interpretation is of little spiritual value, written for children as in fairy tales, or as described by one of its key figures, Paul, "milk" as for babes. I believe the figure known as Jesus filled the gap of time covering the past 2k+ years (Age of Pices), as others did before him. He is a form or image for our immature minds to focus on, like when Jacob had his livestock look at striped and spotted twigs while they ate. So in a way he IS our savior, just not in the literal way described in the bible. His role helped us take the next step in evolving the consciousness of the human race. Other will follow in the coming age.
Click to expand...

If you are at all familiar with the beliefs of orthodox Christianity, then it will be obvious to you where we disagree. :hi:
 
#1,215
#1,215
Orange_Crush said:
If you are at all familiar with the beliefs of orthodox Christianity, then it will be obvious to you where we disagree. :hi:
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Yeah I understand. Hey listen I've enjoyed the convo, but I guess we've let it get way off the original discussion. Thanks for sharing your perspective and being a good sport. Back to work for me :hi:
 
#1,218
#1,218
Good news! No need to let the minority in a supposed democratic society dictate toward the majority. Besides if someone doesn't even believe in a Creator, I don't see why they would feel threatened by a prayer anyways.
 
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#1,220
#1,220
sanddune50 said:
Good news! No need to let the minority in a supposed democratic society dictate toward the majority. Besides if someone doesn't even believe in a Creator, I don't see why they would feel threatened by a prayer anyways.
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I am agnostic. When people pray I sit/stand whatever silently and respectfully. Well, not when I was in Afghanistan or Iraq listening to those damn towers screaming their gibberish..but you get the idea. Anyone who lets this bother them is an attention whore and a moron.
 
#1,222
#1,222
ibvolman said:
The separation of church and state is found nowhere within the constitution. It is found in a letter that Jefferson wrote to a group of Baptists, in essence guaranteeing them that the Government would not impose a "State Sponsored" religion, thereby forcing everyone to worship a deity in a mandated manner. This has nothing to do with forcing people to remove prayer, but in reality protects the public practice of such. Through time the intention of the "separation" idea has been perverted for the attempt to remove all forms of religion from any public sector organization, which was never the original intent.

Separation of church and state was not to protect the state from the church, but to protect the church from the state.
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The concept of separating church and state is often credited to the writings of English philosopher John Locke (1632–1704). According to his principle of the social contract, Locke argued that the government lacked authority in the realm of individual conscience, as this was something rational people could not cede to the government for it or others to control. For Locke, this created a natural right in the liberty of conscience, which he argued must therefore remain protected from any government authority. These views on religious tolerance and the importance of individual conscience, along with his social contract, became particularly influential in the American colonies and the drafting of the United States Constitution.

Thus, you are correct, and therefore, in agreement with the majority of the secular population: The government (UT state-funded school) should not meddle with the church (mandate a prayer during any state-funded event such as UT football games).

Another way to look at things is as follows: If you lived in Saudi Arabia, would you want the soccer games to begin with everyone on all fours pointing towards Mecca and praying to Allah?

Or... would you just prefer everyone does their own religious (or non-religious) thing?
 
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