Premiere League & World Soccer Thread

#6,876
#6,876
bleedorange0037 said:
I don’t think they are, and wasn’t trying to be a dick. Apologies if it came off that way.

Klopp has annoyed me for years with his endless complaining about there being too many games. The idea that additional chances for clubs to win trophies should be scaled back because the Big Six might be forced to prioritize certain competitions over others is dumb to me.

I also don’t think the players are wrong to be feeling overworked at the moment. The calendar is only just now ironing itself out from all the ripple effects of COVID and the winter World Cup. They haven’t had a full offseason since the summer of 2019. Plus for a while they were playing three games per international break. Not sure if they still are or not, but that’s a lot to ask of the non-European players who have to travel to the other side of the world and back.

I just think the players gripe lies either with their managers who refuse to rest them enough, or FIFA and the confederations for piling on too many international games. Which goes back to my original point of there being no mention of who they were actually planning to sue. I don’t think the powers that be in England are to blame here. That calendar has actually gotten a bit shorter over the past 20-30 years.
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No worries, you’re fine. It just took me a minute to grasp your point of view.

And it’s a valid point to try and identify who the players believe is responsible for all this “fixture fatigue”. I guess I felt it was more organizations like FIFA, among others, who always seem to be trying to fit in another competition whenever they can in order to generate more revenue. I never considered the manager angle but after thinking on it, you do have a valid point. Some of it does fall on managers who refuse to rotate their squad because they’re trying to win triples and quadruples.

As far as Jurgen Klopp goes, I’m pretty sure that man would find a way to complain about winning the lottery. I stopped paying attention to the Liverpool and Man United media gripes a long time ago. Those two clubs/fan bases are as entitled as they come and, in my opinion, they have far too much influence on the sport/media coverage in England (sort of like Bama in college football). At least, it seemed that way to me when I was over there and I’ve seen nothing since I’ve been back to change my opinion.

But yeah, I’m all for preserving opportunities for smaller clubs to win trophies. Hopefully they never go away. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
 
#6,877
#6,877
Charlie Kelly said:
No worries, you’re fine. It just took me a minute to grasp your point of view.

And it’s a valid point to try and identify who the players believe is responsible for all this “fixture fatigue”. I guess I felt it was more organizations like FIFA, among others, who always seem to be trying to fit in another competition whenever they can in order to generate more revenue. I never considered the manager angle but after thinking on it, you do have a valid point. Some of it does fall on managers who refuse to rotate their squad because they’re trying to win triples and quadruples.

As far as Jurgen Klopp goes, I’m pretty sure that man would find a way to complain about winning the lottery. I stopped paying attention to the Liverpool and Man United media gripes a long time ago. Those two clubs/fan bases are as entitled as they come and, in my opinion, they have far too much influence on the sport/media coverage in England (sort of like Bama in college football). At least, it seemed that way to me when I was over there and I’ve seen nothing since I’ve been back to change my opinion.

But yeah, I’m all for preserving opportunities for smaller clubs to win trophies. Hopefully they never go away. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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“Load management” has become par for the course in the US for the sports with long seasons. The days of someone like Michael Jordan, who aside from the one season he was injured, only missed seven games HIS ENTIRE CAREER, or Cal Ripken Jr. playing 2500+ consecutive games are long gone. LeBron is probably still going at nearly 40 because he’s sat out 2-3 seasons worth of regular season games over the course of his career.

I know it’s not apples to apples because those are playoff sports where all you have to do is get a seat at the final table, and European soccer doesn’t work that way. But managers are going to have to figure out a way to do that because playing this many games is likely to take years off player’s careers. I totally get why they would push back against that when even the most durable players lose their earning potential by their late 30’s and have to find something else to do.
 
#6,878
#6,878
Charlie Kelly said:
No worries, you’re fine. It just took me a minute to grasp your point of view.

And it’s a valid point to try and identify who the players believe is responsible for all this “fixture fatigue”. I guess I felt it was more organizations like FIFA, among others, who always seem to be trying to fit in another competition whenever they can in order to generate more revenue. I never considered the manager angle but after thinking on it, you do have a valid point. Some of it does fall on managers who refuse to rotate their squad because they’re trying to win triples and quadruples.

As far as Jurgen Klopp goes, I’m pretty sure that man would find a way to complain about winning the lottery. I stopped paying attention to the Liverpool and Man United media gripes a long time ago. Those two clubs/fan bases are as entitled as they come and, in my opinion, they have far too much influence on the sport/media coverage in England (sort of like Bama in college football). At least, it seemed that way to me when I was over there and I’ve seen nothing since I’ve been back to change my opinion.

But yeah, I’m all for preserving opportunities for smaller clubs to win trophies. Hopefully they never go away. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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I’m obviously a Klopp fan boy but I don’t think his comments regarding the amount of fixtures was/is off base. Other managers have echoed the same sentiment since gaining European qualification. A few years ago when Chelsea and LFC played substantially more games than other clubs, they also had substantially more injuries than other clubs in the year following. I’m all for smaller clubs having the opportunity to win silverware, but I also think there are too many fixtures for the clubs in Europe and other domestic cups on top of PL and international duty.
 
#6,879
#6,879
VolsLFC said:
I’m obviously a Klopp fan boy but I don’t think his comments regarding the amount of fixtures was/is off base. Other managers have echoed the same sentiment since gaining European qualification. A few years ago when Chelsea and LFC played substantially more games than other clubs, they also had substantially more injuries than other clubs in the year following. I’m all for smaller clubs having the opportunity to win silverware, but I also think there are too many fixtures for the clubs in Europe and other domestic cups on top of PL.
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If only qualifying for those competitions offered some sort of financial reward that would enable the teams to add squad depth to help with the extra workload.🤔

Another possible compromise that has been floated is not having the European qualified teams participate in the League Cup. Not sure how I feel about that one. On one hand it would make it more realistic that Everton win it someday. But on the other, what’s the joy in winning a tournament that the big teams don’t even enter?
 
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#6,880
#6,880
bleedorange0037 said:
If only qualifying for those competitions offered some sort of financial reward that would enable the teams to add squad depth to help with the extra workload.🤔

Another possible compromise that has been floated is not having the European qualified teams participate in the League Cup. Not sure how I feel about that one. On one hand it would make it more realistic that Everton win it someday. But on the other, what’s the joy in winning a tournament that the big teams don’t even enter?
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I don’t disagree with you at all. Not quite sure what the solution is. I’d also like LFC to get more quality depth but the club seems to insist on keeping wage bill down as much as possible.
 
#6,881
#6,881
C/O said:
Liverpool and Spurs both losing a couple of hard hitters a piece. Curious to see how much some of the other teams miss players
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I think Liverpool will be mostly okay. Midfield with Endo leaving could be a little concerning, especially if Szobo(?) is out for any time. Saw he had a knock last game but not sure if it was serious? Better question for the pool fans in here. Salah leaving is obviously no bueno as he has been involved (G/A) in almost half of Liverpools goals. I do think they have the talent upfront to absorb that more than they do in the midfield missing Endo and possibly Szobo if he’s out. That would be more concerning to me.

No idea what to expect with the Spurs. Your captain leaving for a few weeks is already bad but so much runs through Son up top. That’ll be hard to replace.

The last notable one that I think is more under the radar is West Ham losing Kudus for AFCON. He’s been really good for them and they are in good form. They’ll need to keep pace for that 5-8 place range without him.
 
#6,882
#6,882
bleedorange0037 said:
I don’t think they are, and wasn’t trying to be a dick. Apologies if it came off that way.

Klopp has annoyed me for years with his endless complaining about there being too many games. The idea that additional chances for clubs to win trophies should be scaled back because the Big Six might be forced to prioritize certain competitions over others is dumb to me.

I also don’t think the players are wrong to be feeling overworked at the moment. The calendar is only just now ironing itself out from all the ripple effects of COVID and the winter World Cup. They haven’t had a full offseason since the summer of 2019. Plus for a while they were playing three games per international break. Not sure if they still are or not, but that’s a lot to ask of the non-European players who have to travel to the other side of the world and back.

I just think the players gripe lies either with their managers who refuse to rest them enough, or FIFA and the confederations for piling on too many international games. Which goes back to my original point of their being no mention of who they were actually planning to sue. I don’t think the powers that be in England are to blame here. That calendar has actually gotten a bit shorter over the past 20-30 years.
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Missed this post when responding to the other one, but I agree completely with the last two paragraphs. This is most definitely not an England problem, or any top flight league problem, but a problem with FIFA overall and international organizations. No idea who the players would sue though. I’m guessing FIFA? Idk.
 
#6,883
#6,883
Charlie Kelly said:
No worries, you’re fine. It just took me a minute to grasp your point of view.

And it’s a valid point to try and identify who the players believe is responsible for all this “fixture fatigue”. I guess I felt it was more organizations like FIFA, among others, who always seem to be trying to fit in another competition whenever they can in order to generate more revenue. I never considered the manager angle but after thinking on it, you do have a valid point. Some of it does fall on managers who refuse to rotate their squad because they’re trying to win triples and quadruples.

As far as Jurgen Klopp goes, I’m pretty sure that man would find a way to complain about winning the lottery. I stopped paying attention to the Liverpool and Man United media gripes a long time ago. Those two clubs/fan bases are as entitled as they come and, in my opinion, they have far too much influence on the sport/media coverage in England (sort of like Bama in college football). At least, it seemed that way to me when I was over there and I’ve seen nothing since I’ve been back to change my opinion.

But yeah, I’m all for preserving opportunities for smaller clubs to win trophies. Hopefully they never go away. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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The bolded 😂 love it
 
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#6,884
#6,884
VolsLFC said:
I don’t disagree with you at all. Not quite sure what the solution is. I’d also like LFC to get more quality depth but the club seems to insist on keeping wage bill down as much as possible.
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Wage Bill and Payroll aren’t the most accurate to track online, different sites will have different numbers, but according to Spotrac Liverpool have the 4th highest wage bill in premier league. United are the clear #1. So Liverpool does spend there but they are almost 20M less per year in salaries than United. 8M less than Chelsea at #2. Feels like they could spend a little more to get the depth they drastically need.
 
#6,885
#6,885
Nash_Vol97 said:
I think Liverpool will be mostly okay. Midfield with Endo leaving could be a little concerning, especially if Szobo(?) is out for any time. Saw he had a knock last game but not sure if it was serious? Better question for the pool fans in here. Salah leaving is obviously no bueno as he has been involved (G/A) in almost half of Liverpools goals. I do think they have the talent upfront to absorb that more than they do in the midfield missing Endo and possibly Szobo if he’s out. That would be more concerning to me.

No idea what to expect with the Spurs. Your captain leaving for a few weeks is already bad but so much runs through Son up top. That’ll be hard to replace.

The last notable one that I think is more under the radar is West Ham losing Kudus for AFCON. He’s been really good for them and they are in good form. They’ll need to keep pace for that 5-8 place range without him.
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Short answer - I'm rooting against Egypt and Japan. I would be OK with Szobo filling in for Salah on the wing, but to your point he picked up a knock (hamstring). Hamstring injuries always make me hold my breath. It does give an opportunity to Doak, who is an exciting young prospect. If Diaz can get back to his old self, I will also feel better especially with Jota getting healthy.

Nash_Vol97 said:
Wage Bill and Payroll aren’t the most accurate to track online, different sites will have different numbers, but according to Spotrac Liverpool have the 4th highest wage bill in premier league. United are the clear #1. So Liverpool does spend there but they are almost 20M less per year in salaries than United. 8M less than Chelsea at #2. Feels like they could spend a little more to get the depth they drastically need.
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I should have been more clear probably. We do have a higher wage bill compared to all clubs in PL, but I feel like LFC could've and should've done more with the the influx of revenue from recent successes and increased fixture list as a result. Thiago & Salah are two of top three earners who could be close to their LFC careers ending and will create a huge drop in spend when they do leave.
 
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#6,887
#6,887
Nash_Vol97 said:
Wage Bill and Payroll aren’t the most accurate to track online, different sites will have different numbers, but according to Spotrac Liverpool have the 4th highest wage bill in premier league. United are the clear #1. So Liverpool does spend there but they are almost 20M less per year in salaries than United. 8M less than Chelsea at #2. Feels like they could spend a little more to get the depth they drastically need.
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Where is City
 
#6,888
#6,888
I'm reading that this upcoming AFON was postponed to its current January 13 start date because of "adverse summer weather" in the Ivory Coast. 1) It is still summer in Ivory Coast, and 2) did they just now discover that it was hot there during the summer? Or any time of year? It's right above the freaking equator.
 
#6,889
#6,889
Outofmyvolcanmind said:
Where is City
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Glad you asked because I just realized the list I was using for my first comment was only analyzing forward position spending. When you include all spending for all positions in the payroll then United and City are a class of their own. United is 203M and City is 201M. Next closest is Arsenal at 161M and then Chelsea at 150M.

1704379554480.png
 
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#6,890
#6,890
Outofmyvolcanmind said:
Endo a hard hitter? If you’re counting his tackles sure but cmon.

Salah is not just a hard hitter. He’s a Golem.
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Don't get me wrong, Endo is no Rodri, but he has settled in quite nicely. Per stats, we seem to win more and concede less goals when he is in the side.
 
#6,891
#6,891
Nash_Vol97 said:
Glad you asked because I just realized the list I was using for my first comment was only analyzing forward position spending. When you include all spending for all positions in the payroll then United and City are a class of their own. United is 203M and City is 201M. Next closest is Arsenal at 161M and then Chelsea at 150M.

View attachment 607295
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Yeah this makes much more sense lol.
 
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#6,893
#6,893
bleedorange0037 said:
“Load management” has become par for the course in the US for the sports with long seasons. The days of someone like Michael Jordan, who aside from the one season he was injured, only missed seven games HIS ENTIRE CAREER, or Cal Ripken Jr. playing 2500+ consecutive games are long gone. LeBron is probably still going at nearly 40 because he’s sat out 2-3 seasons worth of regular season games over the course of his career.

I know it’s not apples to apples because those are playoff sports where all you have to do is get a seat at the final table, and European soccer doesn’t work that way. But managers are going to have to figure out a way to do that because playing this many games is likely to take years off player’s careers. I totally get why they would push back against that when even the most durable players lose their earning potential by their late 30’s and have to find something else to do.
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Yeah, I follow the NBA so load management is definitely a phenomenon that has popped up recently (within the last 15 years or so). I’m not surprised it’s become an issue in soccer with how long the seasons are.

A balance will come along eventually. It’s why I was suggesting earlier players could start having their agents insert “minute-limit-clauses” in contracts with their clubs, especially before international breaks if they happen to play for their country. This may already be a thing, I’m no expert on typical soccer contracts. This would force managers to prioritize certain competitions over others (at least for bigger clubs competing in multiple competitions simultaneously).

For instance, a player may have a clause that limits them to no more than 150 or 180 minutes per week of competitive play. There may be different clauses for weeks before international breaks and other extenuating circumstances. It would probably only work if it became the norm in world football otherwise most clubs may balk at having them included but I could see it catching on if the players were organized and adamant. The players are the main revenue generator for their clubs so if they are serious about protecting themselves and the longevity of their careers, it could be a potential solution as they would be likely to get their way as long as they remained unified in their demands. They have more leverage than the club owners assuming they’re capable of sticking together.
 
#6,894
#6,894
VolsLFC said:
I’m obviously a Klopp fan boy but I don’t think his comments regarding the amount of fixtures was/is off base. Other managers have echoed the same sentiment since gaining European qualification. A few years ago when Chelsea and LFC played substantially more games than other clubs, they also had substantially more injuries than other clubs in the year following. I’m all for smaller clubs having the opportunity to win silverware, but I also think there are too many fixtures for the clubs in Europe and other domestic cups on top of PL and international duty.
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Oh, I’m just giving Jurgen a hard time because every time I see his face on the touchline or in an interview, he’s usually complaining about something. If I was a Liverpool fan, I would like him too. He’s done an excellent job for you guys since he’s been there.

There is no doubt he’s a world class manager, however, I will say that I struggle to respect people who constantly work the referees for a competitive advantage. It really doesn’t matter what sport it is, I just don’t like people who are okay with winning that way.
 
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#6,895
#6,895
Charlie Kelly said:
Oh, I’m just giving Jurgen a hard time because every time I see his face on the touchline or in an interview, he’s usually complaining about something. If I was a Liverpool fan, I would like him too. He’s done an excellent job for you guys since he’s been there.

There is no doubt he’s a world class manager, however, I will say that I struggle to respect people who constantly work the referees for a competitive advantage. It really doesn’t matter what sport it is, I just don’t like people who are okay with winning that way.
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I think that is were we disagree philosophically and that is fine. I'm of the mindset that refs are absolutely terrible across all sports, getting worse, and I think they need to be worked/called out more. I don't think it is entirely their fault though. I think technology should be leveraged more to take some of the responsibilities off of refs. For example, in football why are we relying on old men's eyes to spot the ball?
 
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#6,897
#6,897
VolsLFC said:
I think that is were we disagree philosophically and that is fine. I'm of the mindset that refs are absolutely terrible across all sports, getting worse, and I think they need to be worked/called out more. I don't think it is entirely their fault though. I think technology should be leveraged more to take some of the responsibilities off of refs. For example, in football why are we relying on old men's eyes to spot the ball?
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That’s fair but I usually try and give people the benefit of the doubt. Assaulting someone with claims of “you’re wrong” or “you’ve made a mistake” is typically not a good way to get people to see your point of view (at least in my experience). I think most referees try to do the best they can but we’re only human. We’ll never get all the calls right no matter how many gadgets and tools we create to keep track of reality for us. They may help reduce errors but ultimately, our ignorance is built into them as well. So, if there’s nothing to be done but try our best, I feel like the players should expend their effort on playing, referees should expend their effort on refereeing, and managers should expend their effort on managing.

But it’s all in good fun (at least for most people). At their core, sports are forms of entertainment for people like us. It’ll never be perfect but it never is anywhere you go. I know I’d still rather watch a poorly refereed soccer game where my team got screwed than another iteration of the Fast and the Furious.
 
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#6,899
#6,899
NorCalVol67 said:
That was lame. Everton were definitely the better side today.
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I’m not sure we were going to find a winner even with eleven, but what sucks is that he’s now suspended for theee matches, two of which may be league games.

The whole thing is idiotic. On field refs are essentially empty uniforms at this point once VAR gets involved. Just once I’d like a ref to walk over to the monitor, take a look, and tell the VAR “**** off. I was ten feet away, saw it clearly at full speed, I’m sticking with my decision.”

Also, having VAR at some FA Cup games and not others is crazy to me. How can a tournament claim to have any competitive integrity when 9 games this weekend are played with one set of rules, and the other 23 with another?
 
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