question about Christianity

#376
#376
PKT_VOL said:
I respectfully disagree. The Cosmological Argument does not necessarily entail that there must be a supernatural explanation. In my opinion, it is simply an intriguing physics dilemma. Modern theoretical physics is close to providing an adequate answer which does not violate our perceived natural laws of the known universe.
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You are correct; theoretical physics is close to providing that. At the moment they do, I will have to alter my views.
 
#380
#380
ImTheCrew said:
So then you're open to anything?
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The following are just as possible and plausible:
1. No soul
2. Complete annihilation of the soul.
3. Eternity of the soul.
a. Some form of immaterial existence with immediate Being (Heaven)
b. Reincarnation
 
#384
#384
Here is an argument from evil:
1. There exist states of affairs in which animals die agonizing deaths in forest fires, or where children undergo lingering suffering and eventual death due to cancer, and that (a) are intrinsically bad or undesirable, and (b) are such that any omnipotent person has the power to prevent them without thereby either allowing an equal or greater evil, or preventing an equal or greater good.

2. For any state of affairs (that is actual), the existence of that state of affairs is not prevented by anyone.

3. For any state of affairs, and any person, if the state of affairs is intrinsically bad, and the person has the power to prevent that state of affairs without thereby either allowing an equal or greater evil, or preventing an equal or greater good, but does not do so, then that person is not both omniscient and morally perfect.

Therefore, from (1), (2), and (3):

4. There is no omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect being.
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According to Christian Canon, God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect; therefore, the God of Christianity cannot exist unless one argues that evil does not exist (which has been done); however, according to Christian Canon, evil does exist in the world. Therefore, according to Christian Canon, the Christian God does not exist.
 
#385
#385
Ya - what happens after death. I wonder this sometimes. Am I arrogant enough to claim to know what happens? No.
 
#386
#386
Oh man, realUT, you love opening cans of warms. It's like watching someone constantly poke a beehive. The problem of evil is immensely complex. It has been around since the ancient Greeks, made famous by Epicurus, rehashed by Hume, and countless theologians. I would point those in this thread which do not have the philosophical mind nor background you possess towards John Hick. I feel he articulated the best argument in conjunction with what most Christians in the thread seem to think.

Short summary:
The Irenean tradition, or the “minority report,” as designated by Hick, comes from Irenaeus and the early Greek founders of the Church. It is two centuries older than the Augustinian tradition, and it holds that man was not created as a complete being without sin that proceeded to rebel and fall from grace. Instead, Hick argues, man is in a constant state of creational evolvement. According to the Irenean tradition, man is created in two steps, Bios and Zoe. The first step, Bios is the creation of the physical universe and organic life. This phase continues with the creation of man, an organic being with a personal life who is capable of having a relationship with God. This phase is the creation of man in the image of God. The second phase of this creation is man achieving goodness and personal worth. This is the quality of Zoe or the attainment of the likeness of God. This is what Hick refers to as the “soul-making” process.

Hick’s basic argument is that the relationship between God and humankind is a parent/child relationship on a grand scale. For a parent to produce a well-rounded, moral child, there is a two-fold process. First there is the actual conception and birth of the child, which can be compared to the physical creation of man. The second step for a parent is to teach the child the difference between wrong and right and between good and bad. The parent must teach the child how to avoid temptation and live the good life. On a larger scale, man must learn how to live the good life as God sees fit. Since humankind is endowed with free will, this must be a cooperative effort.

Some would argue that God could have just created man in this final, perfected state from the outset. However, Hick argues that doing so would be akin to God creating man as a pet in a cage. Additionally, he argues that such initial perfection would not be nearly as valuable as perfection achieved through trial and error. According to Hick, goodness achieved over a period of time through the trial and tribulation of resisting temptation and sin involves strength and “moral effort.” Hick deduces that God would certainly hold this goodness achieved through strength and “moral effort” in higher regard than goodness achieved by doing nothing more than simply being created in a perfect form.

In response to the criticism that a loving God would not create a world full of evil and temptation, Hick once again refers to the parent/child analogy. Even the most loving parent does not indulge his/her child’s every whim. The most loving parents do enjoy providing their children pleasures, but at the same time, a loving parent realizes that there are times when a child must be denied immediate pleasure in order to gain greater values, such as “moral integrity, unselfishness, compassion, courage, humour, reverence for the truth, and perhaps above all the capacity for love.” Thus, according to Hick, the presence of evil is transcended by its necessity for “soul-making.”

Hick claims that it would be impossible for the deity to have created human with free will and yet not with the ability to choose evil. Hick claims that either humans are made free and that leads to moral evil or else they are made without freedom as with robots and that would make it possible to avoid there being any acts of moral evil. It is better that there be free will and so the deity made the universe with free will in it and that leads to the existence of moral evil.
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It could have it's own thread. Speaking of which, I wish Freak would add a philosophy forum to the board.
 
#387
#387
PKT_VOL said:
Oh man, realUT, you love opening cans of warms. It's like watching someone constantly poke a beehive. The problem of evil is immensely complex. It has been around since the ancient Greeks, made famous by Epicurus, rehashed by Hume, and countless theologians. I would point those in this thread which do not have the philosophical mind nor background you possess towards John Hick. I feel he articulated the best argument in conjunction with what most Christians in the thread seem to think.

Short summary:



It could have it's own thread. Speaking of which, I wish Freak would add a philosophy forum to the board.
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no. that would attract more lefties. they b crazy.
 
#388
#388
The simple fact that most of the supernatural, or "creator" explanations for these ultimate type questions blatantly ignore is they cause more questions than they answer.

One can say a "creator" type explanation makes more sense than "something from nothing". OK, but what makes such arguments pithy is they never want to address where the "creator", supernatural force, etc...came from.
 
#390
#390
rjd970 said:
The simple fact that most of the supernatural, or "creator" explanations for these ultimate type questions blatantly ignore is they cause more questions than they answer.

One can say a "creator" type explanation makes more sense than "something from nothing". OK, but what makes such arguments pithy is they never want to address where the "creator", supernatural force, etc...came from.
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Can be summed up to true infinite regression.
 
#393
#393
ImTheCrew said:
Could god make a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it?
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Ah, the logical contradiction of an omnipotent deity. Akin to creating a stone which he cannot lift, producing a square circle, or making 1+1=3, etc.

What exactly was your point?
 
#394
#394
therealUT said:
Here is an argument from evil:


According to Christian Canon, God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect; therefore, the God of Christianity cannot exist unless one argues that evil does not exist (which has been done); however, according to Christian Canon, evil does exist in the world. Therefore, according to Christian Canon, the Christian God does not exist.
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Nearly all Christian people and preachers today do not believe that God is resposible for evil. However, the Bible teaches that He is. I believe that God is in control of all things, not just the good. Paul explains it to the church at Rome in Romans chapter 9:


9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
 
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