Recruiting Football Talk VIII

[drylo]

No. Grocery stores don't sell television rights for billions of dollars. Organizations that collude to force college football as "extracurricular/not a job" while they profit hugely, is the entire point of the antitrust cases.

Why would I follow your red herring when you choose to blatantly ignore the pertinent points that are on the table. (For the record, if high schooler and middle schoolers wanted to sue for % of gate receipts I'd sit back and thoughtfully consider the arguments made, just as I've done with the NCAA. But I think we can both agree that them not getting a cut of the gate is "at their expense" since "zero" is less than "whatever their cuts would be". )

You want to talk about market equilibrium… why was nobody ever able to start a viable football league where these super valuable college kids could go make a bunch of money playing football instead of being exploited by universities?

Think about that for a second, and then get back to on “at the expense of the athletes”…

 

[DD4ME]

Our new turf sure is getting some rain

That first mow

 

[DD4ME]

Heup did say he anticipated Campbell and Heard being back for Arky. FYI.

Where did that quote originate?

Lol - his press conference

 

[Vfl2407]

Does a 3 loss UGA team with close win over Kentucky make the playoffs? I don’t think they do. If they lose this weekend the pressure is going to start to build.

I guess my point is that these playoffs feel somewhere in between the nfl and how college used to be.

All depends on how many Big10, Bi12, ACC teams finish 11-1 or 10-2. Plus does ND finish 10-2 or 9-3. How many SEC teams is TOO MANY in the eyes of the committee to take? 4? 5?

 

[engineerVOL]

Our new turf sure is getting some rain

I’ve been anxious about that new turf going down right now.

 

[Orange_Crush]

You want to talk about market equilibrium… why was nobody ever able to start a viable football league where these super valuable college kids could go make a bunch of money playing football instead of being exploited by universities?

Think about that for a second, and then get back to on “at the expense of the athletes”…

The SCOTUS has ruled on that. That part isn't even being argued in the current or previous cases. As mentioned, the NCAA is established and powerful enough that one can't reasonably expect a startup to be competitive. As such, the NCAA is colluding to use its money and market share to create an unfair market. Again, you can see the MS antitrust case as well.

 

[KPT_VFL]

“Steak”

 

[Visidog]

All depends on how many Big10, Bi12, ACC teams finish 11-1 or 10-2. Plus does ND finish 10-2 or 9-3. How many SEC teams is TOO MANY in the eyes of the committee to take? 4? 5?

I don’t think a 3-loss anybody out of the SEC is making the playoff. Another conference might have a 3-loss champion, but that’s all but impossible for an SEC team.

Barring a weird result like we almost saw in Lexington, a 2-loss UGA would have beaten Clemson and 2 of Bama, Ole Miss, Texas, and Tennessee. Its only losses would have been to pretty highly-ranked teams that are probably in the playoff. There’s no telling for sure and the head-to-head permutations matter a ton, but it wouldn’t surprise me if that team made the playoff.

One way or another, I doubt anybody talks about a close win against Kentucky again after tomorrow.

 

[Vfl2407]

Heup did say he anticipated Campbell and Heard being back for Arky. FYI.

Where did that quote originate?

Love to know if these words have the same definition to CJH as they do in the dictionary:
Anticipate (them to be back)
Expect (them to be back)

He will NEVER say that a player
WILL be back or they WILL PLAY or they WILL START.
That just won’t happen.
So I no longer “expect” or “anticipate” that it will happen.
I’ve stopped stressing and obsessing over it. well, mostly I have…lol.

 

[Orange.]

No, the entire sport is as good as its been in a long time. There is better parity now that there has been in decades. Multiple great games every week. No idea who is going to win it all this year. It's amazing. You isolate a couple negatives and act like they offset the mountain of positives.

 

[Orange_Crush]

You want to talk about market equilibrium… why was nobody ever able to start a viable football league where these super valuable college kids could go make a bunch of money playing football instead of being exploited by universities?

Think about that for a second, and then get back to on “at the expense of the athletes”…

Also, I think you may gain some clarity if you stopped thinking of "the NCAA" as a single thing and begin to consider it for what it is: A collection of separate businesses that are colluding to price-set salaries.

The SCOTUS literally stated that nowhere else in this country would a group of businesses be allowed to do that, and they have depositions on file from present and former athletes that the collusion was at their own expense. The NCAA doesn't even argue against the fact that they are a group of individual businesses colluding to price set salaries, or that they do so at the expense of the athletes. They just claim, as I guess you do, that college athletics depending on such collusions at the expense of the athletes is necessary to the business model. The SCOTUS opinion filleted them and told them not to come back in front of them with that stupid mess.

 

[jave36]

College football is not a grocery store. I’m not sure why that’s a difficult concept.

I don’t need to be lectured about competition law. I understand it, first of all, and secondly, I think it’s beside the point (and, yes, I know some lawyers and judges disagree). Amateur sports are an extracurricular, not a job.

High schools collect gate receipts, games broadcast on TV and streaming sites, etc., too. Not on the same scale, but it’s the same concept in principle as college football, unlike grocery stores. So why don’t you explain to me why middle school athletic departments aren’t violating child labor laws?

It's not the same concept at all. There is a massive net negative in revenue in middle school football. They're not coming anywhere close to recouping their costs with the revenue. Nobody is paying the school millions of dollars for the rights to broadcast the middle school game on TV. There is no profit in middle school football. There is a massive net positive revenue in college football. There is massive profit in college football.

Furthermore, nobody in the legal world has said colleges have to pay athletes or share revenue with the athletes. They just said colleges can't prohibit athletes helping to generate all that revenue from using their NIL to generate revenue for themselves.

 

[JohnnyD1024]

 

[Orange_Crush]

It's not the same concept at all. There is a massive net negative in revenue in middle school football. They're not coming anywhere close to recouping their costs with the revenue. Nobody is paying the school millions of dollars for the rights to broadcast the middle school game on TV. There is no profit in middle school football. There is a massive net positive revenue in college football. There is massive profit in college football.

Furthermore, nobody in the legal world has said colleges have to pay athletes or share revenue with the athletes. They just said colleges can't prohibit athletes helping to generate all that revenue from using their NIL to generate revenue for themselves.

Good point. No one is saying they have to pay athletes, just that they can't all collude to prevent anyone from paying athletes.

 

[PlanetVolunteer]

Pretty impressive since they've been good a while now

 

[GVol1966]

If Bob said he agreed with an NIL deal with the “School “ then he’d be confused.
Schools aren’t allowed to be making NIL deals.

 

[drylo]

The SCOTUS has ruled on that. That part isn't even being argued in the current or previous cases. As mentioned, the NCAA is established and powerful enough that one can't reasonably expect a startup to be competitive. As such, the NCAA is colluding to use its money and market share to create an unfair market. Again, you can see the MS antitrust case as well.

SCOTUS ruled on what?

The legal landscape here is a huge mess, and I don’t really know how we escape this crazy web of trying to apply antitrust law, labor law, etc., to this very unique situation where Title IX is already a vexing complication before even accounting for any of this other stuff.

At the end of the day, it’s amateur sports, and I, for one, am happy to allow that to be a thing that continues to exist.

But if you think it is (and should be) illegal at the college level, I challenge you to distinguish high school sports… or any other youth sports.

 

[jave36]

SCOTUS ruled on what?

The legal landscape here is a huge mess, and I don’t really know how we escape this crazy web of trying to apply antitrust law, labor law, etc., to this very unique situation where Title IX is already a vexing complication before even accounting for any of this other stuff.

At the end of the day, it’s amateur sports, and I, for one, am happy to allow that to be a thing that continues to exist.

But if you think it is (and should be) illegal at the college level, I challenge you to distinguish high school sports… or any other youth sports.

It's been decades since this was true amateur sports. It was only amateur on onenaode, the athletes. It wasn't at all amateur sports on the other side, the NCAA and universities.

I'll never understand why people so passionately try to preserve a system that is so one sided. You desperately want the NCAA akd universities to keep all the money and make sure those athletes responsible for generating so much of that revenue get the most infinitesimal share via a scholarship akd room/board. Why do you love the NCAA and university administrators ao much? Why do you care about them staying filthy rich?

 

[engineerVOL]

View attachment 681283

 

[jave36]

100,000 seats times $80 average ticket (low estimate) times 7 games is $56 million. That is roughly 25% of the revenue brought in last year. That’s definitely noticeable.

Plus the many millions more made off concessions, parking, souvenirs.

 

[Orange_Crush]

SCOTUS ruled on what?

The legal landscape here is a huge mess, and I don’t really know how we escape this crazy web of trying to apply antitrust law, labor law, etc., to this very unique situation where Title IX is already a vexing complication before even accounting for any of this other stuff.

At the end of the day, it’s amateur sports, and I, for one, am happy to allow that to be a thing that continues to exist.

The SCOTUS has already addressed the question per why not expect someone else to create a system where athletes can get paid. It is unreasonable to expect a startup to be competitive against the market share that the NCAA already has. Just see the XFL, USFL, etc against the NFL. Just see MS and why they were split up on antitrust grounds. MS was using their market share to create an unfair market, and the feds broke them up.

And with all due respect... I'm not trying to be an ass, but... I don't care what you personally prefer or are willing to "allow". I made a statement that the NCAAs collusion was at the expense of the athletes. It was you that took issue with that, and it's been a crazy, ridiculous discussion trying to prove the obvious. Your personal preferences have no bearing whatsoever on antitrust law, the facts of collusion in the NCAA or whether the market they created prevented college athletes from profiting from their work.

I care about fair markets. Why do you care about the NCAA and their member institutions getting filthy rich at the expense of those giving their bodies up to create the profits? Better yet, why are you referencing the (filthy rich) expense that the system cost the athletes while simultaneously arguing that it wasn't at their expense? That seems an untenable position for a rational person to take.

 

[Enki_Amenra]

100,000 seats times $80 average ticket (low estimate) times 7 games is $56 million. That is roughly 25% of the revenue brought in last year. That’s definitely noticeable.

I should've said profit free seats. That would cut the price in half.

Concessions and everything else stay the same. Either way, that's not the point. The point is that fans are being jabbed at every opportunity. They should do something to make the fans feel like they are getting a break somewhere. They could do it easily and never notice it.

$60k in concessions coupons handed out to random fans as they enter or when they buy their tickets. This would actually probably pay for itself. People go to concessions with a $15 coupon and still spend an extra $25-$30 to cover the full cost of what they buy, when they may have not bought concessions to begin with. May not completely pay for itself, but wouldn't be the full $60k.

 

[drylo]

Also, I think you may gain some clarity if you stopped thinking of "the NCAA" as a single thing and begin to consider it for what it is: A collection of separate businesses that are colluding to price-set salaries.

The SCOTUS literally stated that nowhere else in this country would a group of businesses be allowed to do that, and they have depositions on file from present and former athletes that the collusion was at their own expense. The NCAA doesn't even argue against the fact that they are a group of individual businesses colluding to price set salaries, or that they do so at the expense of the athletes. They just claim, as I guess you do, that college athletics depending on such collusions at the expense of the athletes is necessary to the business model. The SCOTUS opinion filleted them and told them not to come back in front of them with that stupid mess.

I am 100% with you on thinking of the NCAA that way. It drives me crazy when people talk about the NCAA as “a single thing.”

And, yes, that’s what creates the competition law hook. And I understand the reading of the Sherman Act that implicates the NCAA, but I think it should be obvious that the Sherman Act was not intended to make amateur sports per se illegal. From a statutory construction perspective, I think the original intent is relevant to how we read the statute, but nevertheless, we could solve it by amending the Sherman Act, and maybe we should.

Like Teddy Lehman, I care more about “what’s right” (i.e. in my words, good policy) than about “the law of the land” (i.e. how a court has interpreted the Sherman Act at present).

 

[screenthis]

It's been decades since this was true amateur sports. It was only amateur on onenaode, the athletes. It wasn't at all amateur sports on the other side, the NCAA and universities.

I'll never understand why people so passionately try to preserve a system that is so one sided. You desperately want the NCAA akd universities to keep all the money and make sure those athletes responsible for generating so much of that revenue get the most infinitesimal share via a scholarship akd room/board. Why do you love the NCAA and university administrators ao much? Why do you care about them staying filthy rich?

All points could be true and yet, I still prefer the way College Sports existed in the 70s and 80s. Yes, there needed to be corrections where players weren't struggling financially. But, as College Football becomes more and more 'business like', I tend to like it less. Personal Preference.

 

[drylo]

It's been decades since this was true amateur sports. It was only amateur on onenaode, the athletes. It wasn't at all amateur sports on the other side, the NCAA and universities.

I'll never understand why people so passionately try to preserve a system that is so one sided. You desperately want the NCAA akd universities to keep all the money and make sure those athletes responsible for generating so much of that revenue get the most infinitesimal share via a scholarship akd room/board. Why do you love the NCAA and university administrators ao much? Why do you care about them staying filthy rich?

I don’t, at all. I care about amateur sports continuing to exist.