Recruiting Forum Football Talk IV

[Rizzo924]

Shouldn't the hot board and priorities be set by the coaching staff? That sounds more like an indictment of Banks (or the position coaches) than the support staff guys. If the coaches are having a hard time identifying the guys they want because the support staff isn't doing a good job of vetting and presenting options, that would be a problem too. Of course they could just ask VN. We have many experts here with large monitors, cherry wood desks, and cordovan leather chairs.

LOL - that last sentence takes me back to the Gruden threads & that babyvol (I think) guy. Don't miss those football days but those threads were some fun reading!

 

[jave36]

Kids have been leaving Santa protein bars instead of cookies it seems.

 

[sjt18]

Your extreme examples are for naught. No we shouldn’t operate rape or anything close to it. But cheating? Not even in the same universe. And some like to think us fans actually have the power to force true change. That’s fantasy land thinking. Fans re not going to stop showing up. I will never stop showing up.

Wouldn't take that. It would simply take fans DEMANDING that administrators abide by the rules AND show support for investigations assuring that they're even handed.

The logic is the same whether you like the example or prefer another one. If you have rules and don't even attempt to enforce them... then you have no rules. And ultimately success goes not to those who do things the best... but those who cheat the best.

The bottoms line is cheaters usually win. Osborne. Jimmy Johnson. Bowden. Spurrier. Miles. Saban. Smart. Dabo. Meyer. Switzer. Carrol. All cheated and won big. You think they would have accomplished that level of success without cheating? You think the fans care? No.

So that makes cheating right? That means it isn't worth it to clean CFB up and especially in the age of NIL?

Demanding winners? There are no serious winners in college football who don’t cheat. For all we know Neyland cheated and so did the Bear. Cheating has likely been going on in some fashion ever since CF has begun. To think it can be eradicated is foolish.

Eradicated? No. But if you had a "rule" that your kid wasn't to leave your yard and cross the street... would your kid be more or less inclined to do it if you saw and tolerated him breaking the rule? You might never "eradicate" him sneaking across the road and back when you aren't looking... but you will minimize the danger to the kid.



This really isn't profound stuff. Cheating is widespread for one reason- cheating is tolerated and as you recognize even rewarded.

Did you complain about the grossly bad calls UT got this year? Why? Even if the officials were betting on the games or intentionally cheated... why should it matter? Everyone cheats. Just the way it is. It has been that way since the start of CFB. It can't be "eradicated"... so why expect change or call for discipline?

 

[drylo]

No. SINCE people care about rape it is investigated and prosecuted resulting in less rape.

A better and more direct comparison might be the choice of officials in CA and NY to NOT prosecute certain crimes. It has resulted in those crimes skyrocketing.

You may never get rid of ALL cheating... but you only encourage it if you accept it like BOT did... and others have agreed.

Saying that more people caring about stopping/punishing cheating means that there will be less of it… is one thing.

Saying that people being ambivalent about cheating is “the DIRECT cause for all the cheating that happens” and that “if fans didn't have that attitude then cheating would end”… is a much different claim.

And trying to bring the moral weight of rape to bear on the issue of cheating around the margins (which is what we are talking about—nobody is justifying paying off refs, the other team, etc.) in college football is a little much. Speeding on the highway or something might be a closer analogue and better example.

All that being said, I’m not sure I really disagree with your ultimate point. I’m good “doing it the right way” — but I also acknowledge, from a pragmatic perspective, that if (if!) everyone is bending certain rules, then in a sense they aren’t really the rules…

 

[Orangeburst]

Shouldn't the hot board and priorities be set by the coaching staff? That sounds more like an indictment of Banks (or the position coaches) than the support staff guys. If the coaches are having a hard time identifying the guys they want because the support staff isn't doing a good job of vetting and presenting options, that would be a problem too. Of course they could just ask VN. We have many experts here with large monitors, cherry wood desks, and cordovan leather chairs.

 

[Helton1]

 

[SSVol]

That is both LOL...and disgusting.

 

[Orangeburst]

That is both LOL...and disgusting.

Must be what Engineer actually smells.

 

[engineerVOL]

Kids have been leaving Santa protein bars instead of cookies it seems.

Forget the chimney next year, leave the front door open for Santa lest….

 

[engineerVOL]

That is both LOL...and disgusting.

 

[Orangeburst]

 

[SSVol]

Must be what Engineer actually smells like.

He's a civil engineer, so...

 

[engineerVOL]

Must be what Engineer actually smells.

I’ll have you know I handcrafted my desk of the finest cedar Lowe’s has to offer.

 

[Smyrna ATL Vol]

Taking a 10 scholarship reduction in one year seems excessive to me. Unless they're just ripping the bandaid off in one year. 3-5/year is the norm. Maybe they've decided to try and take one big punch instead of a few small punches. I'm not sure of that strategy with the 25 hard limit. Will make it difficult to get back to a full roster.

I don’t understand a lot of our administrations decisions and this whole “right way” bs.

 

[SSVol]

I’ll have you know I built my handcrafted my desk of the finest cedar Lowe’s has to offer.

I love the smell of cedar! Had some cedar beard oil...smelled like lumber.

 

[sjt18]

Saying that more people caring about stopping/punishing cheating means that there will be less of it… is one thing.

Saying that people being ambivalent about cheating is “the DIRECT cause for all the cheating that happens” and that “if fans didn't have that attitude then cheating would end”… is a much different claim.

If fans cared and demanded that officials enforce the rules then it would be similar to voters demanding a prosecutor enforce the rules.

And trying to bring the moral weight of rape to bear on the issue of cheating around the margins (which is what we are talking about—nobody is justifying paying off refs, the other team, etc.) in college football is a little much. Speeding on the highway or something might be a closer analogue and better example.

The logic of the post I responded to is still the same. He said that rules should not be enforced because everyone cheats anyway. In fact, he said that UT should cheat MORE if it results in wins because "everyone cheats". If you want a level playing field then you have to support enforcement of the ruleson EVERYONE.

All that being said, I’m not sure I really disagree with your ultimate point. I’m good “doing it the right way” — but I also acknowledge, from a pragmatic perspective, that if (if!) everyone is bending certain rules, then in a sense they aren’t really the rules…

I wish someone would step out of line, assure their program is clean, then start reporting every case of cheating they run across.

I was actually at a game ages ago when Danny Ford confronted Monte Kiffin after their game. Kiffin had reported Ford for recruiting infractions. IIRC, a big kid from Lumberton, NC had been given a girl by Clemson on his recruiting visit... then he told NCSU about it. That's ugly and no one "likes a snitch" but if we want a clean game and a level playing field for programs then it has to start with having sensible rules then enforcing them to the letter.

 

[sjt18]

It DOES frustrate me that enforcement is selective and those who don't cooperate actually benefit more.

I personally think self-discipline like UT engaged in should be rewarded. If you stop cheating and clean your program up... then you shouldn't be punished or at least as much. If you try to hide cheating or stonewall then you should be receive harsher punishment.

Just the simple change of incentivizing programs to self-police would help.

 

[SmokinBob]

 

[Jackcrevol]

I love the smell of cedar! Had some cedar beard oil...smelled like lumber.

isnt it a carcinogen?

Edit: Eastern Red Cedar is known to be toxic.

 

[99Vol]

Cool. What’s it from?

 

[Orangeburst]

Cool. What’s it from?

Gigantor..my fav show as a kid. Could not wait to get home and watch him wreck some fools.

 

[GoBigOrange86]

I don’t understand a lot of our administrations decisions and this whole “right way” bs.

Yeah, it sounds like excuse-making to me.

 

[Johnny Majors' Ghost]

Couple of thoughts here:

1. really hard to tell a early enrollee we want you him back in the summer or fall but not in January. In my opinion it's hard to sign a kid if you tell him that. However, by taking so many early enrollee guys they are in a January numbers pinch. Now if a guy didn't want to be an early enrollee and you talked him into it then that's a different story (I'm not aware of that scenario).

Why the numbers pinch? There are a variety of things happening here. Some thoughts on that and more.

1. Self imposed penalties. Are you going to divide it out over multiple years? You going to rip the band aid off at once, get it behind you and move on with full numbers? Certainly debatable on how to do that. Feels like Tennessee is ripping the band aid off. Could they change course with that and turn it into multi-year restrictions. I would think that's possible.

2. How many is leaving your program? Could it be that you felt like more were leaving than left? Did some guys decide to stay after this fall? I thought J. Williams was leaving and he's staying at linebacker. Latrell Bumphus was a senior so there was a number. But he was able to redshirt (a decision made Kentucky week). Is getting him back for another year better than a transfer? Everyone can debate that as they want. What if a kid doesn't want to leave till May because he's a semester from graduating? You telling him he has to go lose some transfer credits and maybe have to talk another semester to graduate? Scholarships are one year deals. So guys have to voluntarily withdraw. Marley left but I don't think in good enough standing to get his number back. As I always say numbers are fluid which is why it's been hard to give you guys a hard number.

3. Not landing Gilbert or Scott as a juco DB changed the DB needs as well. Land one of those and the dire need for a DB transfer is a little different. Also, horrible play at corner in the bowl game changed the outlook at that position in the minds of all of us.

4. The challenges of the portal. It's clear that some guys know where they are going when the enter the portal. Tennessee swung hard on Verse and missed. They didn't land him and also missed on a couple other HS kids at that spot like Agu. There were some other guys in the portal that Tennessee has simply not liked. Right call? Time will tell. There were some who simply had no interest in Tennessee.

5. Other schools like Florida, LSU, USC, Oklahoma have more room. Why? No penalties. Lots more players leaving the program and they signed small numbers in December -- Oklahoma signed 17, Florida 12, USC 8, LSU 13.

Now before some of you jump in here and say crap like CWS just got owned, blah, blah. No he didn't. He's made a point that is worth looking at and examining. He's right in that some of the offensive linemen aren't going to be guys who provide immediate help.

Others are right in that this is a marathon not a sprint. Vols aren't winning the SEC East in 2022. So there is selectiveness in the portal guys. Vols have liked some and couldn't get in the door. Others they haven't liked. Have they made mistakes? Maybe. Time will tell. It's a tough call for coaches. You don't want to look up and see a guy having a huge impact somewhere and say we should have tried to go on him. You also don't want to look out on your practice field and say dang we cost ourself someone by taking a guy who can't help.

-Hubbs

 

[TrippieRedd]

Couple of thoughts here:

1. really hard to tell a early enrollee we want you him back in the summer or fall but not in January. In my opinion it's hard to sign a kid if you tell him that. However, by taking so many early enrollee guys they are in a January numbers pinch. Now if a guy didn't want to be an early enrollee and you talked him into it then that's a different story (I'm not aware of that scenario).

Why the numbers pinch? There are a variety of things happening here. Some thoughts on that and more.

1. Self imposed penalties. Are you going to divide it out over multiple years? You going to rip the band aid off at once, get it behind you and move on with full numbers? Certainly debatable on how to do that. Feels like Tennessee is ripping the band aid off. Could they change course with that and turn it into multi-year restrictions. I would think that's possible.

2. How many is leaving your program? Could it be that you felt like more were leaving than left? Did some guys decide to stay after this fall? I thought J. Williams was leaving and he's staying at linebacker. Latrell Bumphus was a senior so there was a number. But he was able to redshirt (a decision made Kentucky week). Is getting him back for another year better than a transfer? Everyone can debate that as they want. What if a kid doesn't want to leave till May because he's a semester from graduating? You telling him he has to go lose some transfer credits and maybe have to talk another semester to graduate? Scholarships are one year deals. So guys have to voluntarily withdraw. Marley left but I don't think in good enough standing to get his number back. As I always say numbers are fluid which is why it's been hard to give you guys a hard number.

3. Not landing Gilbert or Scott as a juco DB changed the DB needs as well. Land one of those and the dire need for a DB transfer is a little different. Also, horrible play at corner in the bowl game changed the outlook at that position in the minds of all of us.

4. The challenges of the portal. It's clear that some guys know where they are going when the enter the portal. Tennessee swung hard on Verse and missed. They didn't land him and also missed on a couple other HS kids at that spot like Agu. There were some other guys in the portal that Tennessee has simply not liked. Right call? Time will tell. There were some who simply had no interest in Tennessee.

5. Other schools like Florida, LSU, USC, Oklahoma have more room. Why? No penalties. Lots more players leaving the program and they signed small numbers in December -- Oklahoma signed 17, Florida 12, USC 8, LSU 13.

Now before some of you jump in here and say crap like CWS just got owned, blah, blah. No he didn't. He's made a point that is worth looking at and examining. He's right in that some of the offensive linemen aren't going to be guys who provide immediate help.

Others are right in that this is a marathon not a sprint. Vols aren't winning the SEC East in 2022. So there is selectiveness in the portal guys. Vols have liked some and couldn't get in the door. Others they haven't liked. Have they made mistakes? Maybe. Time will tell. It's a tough call for coaches. You don't want to look up and see a guy having a huge impact somewhere and say we should have tried to go on him. You also don't want to look out on your practice field and say dang we cost ourself someone by taking a guy who can't help.

-Hubbs

I’m telling Flowers, Tank, and WB to leave. Rather keep Bumphus

 

[Jackcrevol]

Couple of thoughts here:

1. really hard to tell a early enrollee we want you him back in the summer or fall but not in January. In my opinion it's hard to sign a kid if you tell him that. However, by taking so many early enrollee guys they are in a January numbers pinch. Now if a guy didn't want to be an early enrollee and you talked him into it then that's a different story (I'm not aware of that scenario).

Why the numbers pinch? There are a variety of things happening here. Some thoughts on that and more.

1. Self imposed penalties. Are you going to divide it out over multiple years? You going to rip the band aid off at once, get it behind you and move on with full numbers? Certainly debatable on how to do that. Feels like Tennessee is ripping the band aid off. Could they change course with that and turn it into multi-year restrictions. I would think that's possible.

2. How many is leaving your program? Could it be that you felt like more were leaving than left? Did some guys decide to stay after this fall? I thought J. Williams was leaving and he's staying at linebacker. Latrell Bumphus was a senior so there was a number. But he was able to redshirt (a decision made Kentucky week). Is getting him back for another year better than a transfer? Everyone can debate that as they want. What if a kid doesn't want to leave till May because he's a semester from graduating? You telling him he has to go lose some transfer credits and maybe have to talk another semester to graduate? Scholarships are one year deals. So guys have to voluntarily withdraw. Marley left but I don't think in good enough standing to get his number back. As I always say numbers are fluid which is why it's been hard to give you guys a hard number.

3. Not landing Gilbert or Scott as a juco DB changed the DB needs as well. Land one of those and the dire need for a DB transfer is a little different. Also, horrible play at corner in the bowl game changed the outlook at that position in the minds of all of us.

4. The challenges of the portal. It's clear that some guys know where they are going when the enter the portal. Tennessee swung hard on Verse and missed. They didn't land him and also missed on a couple other HS kids at that spot like Agu. There were some other guys in the portal that Tennessee has simply not liked. Right call? Time will tell. There were some who simply had no interest in Tennessee.

5. Other schools like Florida, LSU, USC, Oklahoma have more room. Why? No penalties. Lots more players leaving the program and they signed small numbers in December -- Oklahoma signed 17, Florida 12, USC 8, LSU 13.

Now before some of you jump in here and say crap like CWS just got owned, blah, blah. No he didn't. He's made a point that is worth looking at and examining. He's right in that some of the offensive linemen aren't going to be guys who provide immediate help.

Others are right in that this is a marathon not a sprint. Vols aren't winning the SEC East in 2022. So there is selectiveness in the portal guys. Vols have liked some and couldn't get in the door. Others they haven't liked. Have they made mistakes? Maybe. Time will tell. It's a tough call for coaches. You don't want to look up and see a guy having a huge impact somewhere and say we should have tried to go on him. You also don't want to look out on your practice field and say dang we cost ourself someone by taking a guy who can't help.

-Hubbs

good post Hubber. rounds out the hand wringing edge.

not gonna lie, I was one of them. This puts it into perspective and gives a cogent argument as to why. Which. I think we deserve to know.

I wager this staff has a plan, we just have no idea. As with everything else we are underestimating Huepel's cognition.

Until I heard about lack of plan, I was a Banks' defender. Now, I'm of the wait and see approach. If we get into Spring, and, we **** bed on transfers like we did defensive players, I'm saying eff continuity. Give Willie Mo or Garner the clipboard and say sianara. What we witnessed in bowl game was a joke.