Recruiting Forum Football Talk XXXVI

[seaofORANGE22]

Butch's scheme is the issue here. So everybody hoping we beat UGA or whoever... That's fine. We might. But it will be in spite of his scheme.

The only thing that saves Butch is him admitting his offensive and defensive schemes are not cut out for the SEC and he has to actually use his brain during games. Drop the charts. Drop the gimmicks. Train your team to punch people in the mouth and like it. Give the ball to your studs. Don't call plays based on percentages or most likely outcomes. That's ridiculous. It's like choosing the Ask Madden play every time instead of actually playing the game. It's a cop out.

Learn to trust your gut because that's how elite coaches operate. This game is every bit art as it is science. You have to be good at both. Butch so badly wants to prove to everybody how his scientific approach is unstoppable. But opposing coaches read right through him using their guts game after game. Even most mid-major coaches we've played are outthinking him.

There's a reason why we can't score until our backs are against the wall and we have to. We start getting desperate and taking risks and our players (who are awesome) start being creative and making plays. If we played with that mindset out of the gate we might be in business.

The only reason we have won the games we have is because we have the talent to hang around and wait for something fluky to happen. Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn't. That's no way to run this program on the field. We can do so much better.

Admit your mistakes now. Change it. Or get out.

This aspect is what I will be keeping an eye on the rest of the season and I think it's much more important than strict wins and losses.

This is what will ultimately be his downfall at Tennessee in my opinion. He won't change. Or perhaps he can't. Either way he's not fit for this program. All the other stuff he does is great. But the job is football coach. The most important part of that is what you do on the football field and he does not do that part well.

 

[rjd970]

I'm not sure. If I'm Currie, I'm say no to force Butch's hand. I realize no extension handicaps him. Butch would obviously see the writing on the wall. He'd more aggressively seek employment elsewhere. He'd most likely lower his standard of available jobs.

If they don't want to continue with his services and can't/won't pay the full buyout I could see this happening.

Regardless of beating UF, another 8-4 or 7-5 type season it would have been hard to argue for it anyway.

 

[volatil]

This Currie talk has me excited.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

I am too lazy to look back and understand how GMs extension is different than most

Can you give me cliff notes dumbed down version?

ThAnsk

He got one year added on, but most of the numbers stayed constant in his contract (save for a 500k raise for 2016 and 2017 and a 500k decrease in salary for two years on the back end of the contract).


Idk if it's necessarily "different than most" in any other way than the fact that it was an extension for only one year when most meaningful extensions add multiple years and/or up the "golden parachute" (amount of money owed per remaining years left on contract if fired).

Take Butch's contract, for example and apply the logic of Malzahn's extension with regards to buyout. He's currently owed 2.5 million/year left if he's fired (currently 4 years) + 2 million dollar buyout off the top. If he was extended 3 years, then in fall 2018 he'd be owed 2.5/year (for 6 years remaining) + 2 million.

But if he's extended a single year, similar Malzahn, then he'd be owed the same amount in fall 2018 2.5/year (for 4 years remaining) + 2 million as he'd be owed this fall for being fired.



An extension like Malzahn's is basically a meaningless punt.


Edit: FTR, I admit I'm not totally clear on how exactly the golden parachute thing applies to a contract year that is nearly complete. Not sure if firing Butch this Demeber would mean 4 year/2.5 + 2, 3 years/2.5 + 2, or 3.25/2.5 +2.

 

[BruinVol]

I'm not sure. If I'm Currie, I'm say no to force Butch's hand. I realize no extension handicaps him. Butch would obviously see the writing on the wall. He'd more aggressively seek employment elsewhere. He'd most likely lower his standard of available jobs.

Thanks for the answer even though Ziti won't like it


I don't like it either as I don't want a high stakes game of poker being played with the future of or roster on the line.

 

[ob79]

No decision should be made with recruiting class in mind.

That's how we landed Dooley.

 

[BruinVol]

He got one year added on, but most of the numbers stayed constant in his contract (save for a 500k raise for 2016 and 2017 and a 500k decrease in salary for two years on the back end of the contract).


Idk if it's necessarily "different than most" in any other way than the fact that it was an extension for only one year when most meaningful extensions add multiple years and/or up the "golden parachute" (amount of money owed per remaining years left on contract if fired).

Take Butch's contract, for example and apply the logic of Malzahn's extension with regards to buyout. He's currently owed 2.5 million/year left if he's fired (currently 4 years) + 2 million dollar buyout off the top. If he was extended 3 years, then in fall 2018 he'd be owed 2.5/year (for 6 years remaining) + 2 million.

But if he's extended a single year, similar Malzahn, then he'd be owed the same amount in fall 2018 2.5/year (for 4 years remaining) + 2 million as he'd be owed this fall for being fired.



An extension like Malzahn's is basically a meaningless punt.

Appreciate it.

Who is his agent?

 

[BigZiti09]

Thanks for the answer even though Ziti won't like it


I don't like it either as I don't want a high stakes game of poker being played with the future of or roster on the line.

I just don't think it is realistic. In what scenario are we denying an extension and others are seeking to hire him?

Especially at 7-5. Who wants to hire a 7-5 football coach and have to pay $3m to do so when his current employer is willing to let him go a second year in a row without an extension.

And I fully agree with your last point. High stakes game that I don't think we can afford to lose. $10.5 million at stake though. Lot of dough.

 

[BigZiti09]

He got one year added on, but most of the numbers stayed constant in his contract (save for a 500k raise for 2016 and 2017 and a 500k decrease in salary for two years on the back end of the contract).


Idk if it's necessarily "different than most" in any other way than the fact that it was an extension for only one year when most meaningful extensions add multiple years and/or up the "golden parachute" (amount of money owed per remaining years left on contract if fired).

Take Butch's contract, for example and apply the logic of Malzahn's extension with regards to buyout. He's currently owed 2.5 million/year left if he's fired (currently 4 years) + 2 million dollar buyout off the top. If he was extended 3 years, then in fall 2018 he'd be owed 2.5/year (for 6 years remaining) + 2 million.

But if he's extended a single year, similar Malzahn, then he'd be owed the same amount in fall 2018 2.5/year (for 4 years remaining) + 2 million as he'd be owed this fall for being fired.



An extension like Malzahn's is basically a meaningless punt.

We punted last year when we didn't extend him.

But again, I'm not disagreeing with giving him a one year extension under the right circumstances. I'm saying that isn't what the OP was suggesting IMO. IMO he was suggesting adding a year to the deal but negotiating down the buyout so UT would essentially be giving a fake extension. Won't happen.

What you are suggesting is certainly possible. Especially at 8-4.

 

[SSVol]

If what EZ says is true, Currie is already working the phones. It'll be a done deal before the mutual parting is announced.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

I just don't think it is realistic. In what scenario are we denying an extension and others are seeking to hire him?

Especially at 7-5. Who wants to hire a 7-5 football coach and have to pay $3m to do so when his current employer is willing to let him go a second year in a row without an extension.

I agree it's unlikely, but I can see some P5 bottom dweller jumping all over Butch if they just wanna make bowls each year and occasionally have an 8-9 win season.

 

[BruinVol]

I just don't think it is realistic. In what scenario are we denying an extension and others are seeking to hire him?

Especially at 7-5. Who wants to hire a 7-5 football coach and have to pay $3m to do so when his current employer is willing to let him go a second year in a row without an extension.

I agree with that which gets us back to what you said. If he comes back he has to be extended.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

Appreciate it.

Who is his agent?

Sexton

But Malzahn got his extension prior to 2016, not post 2016.

 

[BigZiti09]

I agree with that which gets us back to what you said. If he comes back he has to be extended.

100%

Bringing him back without an extension is the dumbest move you can make.

Can't let the program die on the vine.

 

[BruinVol]

Sexton

But Malzahn got his extension prior to 2016, not post 2016.

Interesting

 

[BigZiti09]

I agree it's unlikely, but I can see some P5 bottom dweller jumping all over Butch if they just wanna make bowls each year and occasionally have an 8-9 win season.

A bottom dweller willing to pay us $3 million? And then pay Butch anywhere near his current salary?

There's just not a lot of teams who are gonna be set up to hire away CBJ.

 

[ob79]

Then fire him. I don't think that is the thing to do without 5 more losses but make a change or extension should be the plan imo

There's precidence here without 5 losses. There's an established track record of poor coaching in tight games. The UGA and SC wins in '15 are now the exception not the rule.

If the Currie wants more than just an 8 win coach he'll make a move, as well he should. Keeping the status quo for recruiting or stability purposes is the outright acceptance of mediocrity.

This program and these players deserve and should demand better.

Butch isn't a bad coach, he's an excellent recruiter but just an average coach.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

We punted last year when we didn't extend him.

But again, I'm not disagreeing with giving him a one year extension under the right circumstances. I'm saying that isn't what the OP was suggesting IMO. IMO he was suggesting adding a year to the deal but negotiating down the buyout so UT would essentially be giving a fake extension. Won't happen.

What you are suggesting is certainly possible. Especially at 8-4.

I interpreted the post as trying to keep the buyout static so that firing him in 2018 is no more expensive than right now.


A one year extension could do that.

 

[VolGee4]

Butch's scheme is the issue here. So everybody hoping we beat UGA or whoever... That's fine. We might. But it will be in spite of his scheme.

The only thing that saves Butch is him admitting his offensive and defensive schemes are not cut out for the SEC and he has to actually use his brain during games. Drop the charts. Drop the gimmicks. Train your team to punch people in the mouth and like it. Give the ball to your studs. Don't call plays based on percentages or most likely outcomes. That's ridiculous. It's like choosing the Ask Madden play every time instead of actually playing the game. It's a cop out.

Learn to trust your gut because that's how elite coaches operate. This game is every bit art as it is science. You have to be good at both. Butch so badly wants to prove to everybody how his scientific approach is unstoppable. But opposing coaches read right through him using their guts game after game. Even most mid-major coaches we've played are outthinking him.

There's a reason why we can't score until our backs are against the wall and we have to. We start getting desperate and taking risks and our players (who are awesome) start being creative and making plays. If we played with that mindset out of the gate we might be in business.

The only reason we have won the games we have is because we have the talent to hang around and wait for something fluky to happen. Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn't. That's no way to run this program on the field. We can do so much better.

Admit your mistakes now. Change it. Or get out.

This aspect is what I will be keeping an eye on the rest of the season and I think it's much more important than strict wins and losses.

This is what will ultimately be his downfall at Tennessee in my opinion. He won't change. Or perhaps he can't. Either way he's not fit for this program. All the other stuff he does is great. But the job is football coach. The most important part of that is what you do on the football field and he does not do that part well.

I responded to Vols4us about this. I am not sure what you guys are referring to as "scheme." I know CBJ referred to his scheme when asked the question about not running on first and goal, but I am not sure I believe that.

To me, scheme is the general philosophy that you go by in order to run a system. I actually wholeheartedly believe his scheme will work. I don't believe certain play calling always falls under scheme. Your scheme can be the I-formation smashmouth football, but it won't work if you run a toss sweep every play.

To me, it's about situational play-calling and the players making the right reads. You have to understand your strengths/weaknesses and down/distance. Not running on 1st and goal is not scheme; it's out thinking your play calling. Then, Dormady makes two bad reads on 3rd downs. One, he should have kept it and would have gotten the first down. The second he kept it on 3rd and 5 and didn't get anywhere. Why call a zone read with a slow QB on 3rd down anyway?

I believe the offensive philosophy has shown it can work. The 2015 played very physical football. I actually believe the UF game shows it can work this year. You just have to be smart with your play calls and help put your QB in a successful position.

As Steve White said a week ago- "Football is not rocket science."

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

A bottom dweller willing to pay us $3 million? And then pay Butch anywhere near his current salary?

There's just not a lot of teams who are gonna be set up to hire away CBJ.

I think if a situation occurred where Currie was trying to push Butch out and Butch found a school willing to hire him, they'd find some sort of agreement to negate that 3 million and make it happen.


Again, highly unlikely, but not completely unprecedented.

 

[VolGee4]

A bottom dweller willing to pay us $3 million? And then pay Butch anywhere near his current salary?

There's just not a lot of teams who are gonna be set up to hire away CBJ.

Nope, if UT legitimately wants him out, then a bottom dweller who will pay $3 million/year for a fresh 5 year deal, and UT who agrees to waive the buyout or even agrees to pay Butch $1 million to take that new job.

UT can save money in the long run by encouraging him to leave.

 

[Nash_Vol97]

Agreed. My guess is Arizona State or Nebraska. If they won't take him, maybe like a Boston College.

Maybe Purdue. Brohm might not be there next year if he keeps winning, somebody will hire him.

 

[BruinVol]

There's precidence here without 5 losses. There's an established track record of poor coaching in tight games. The UGA and SC wins in '15 are now the exception not the rule.

If the Currie wants more than just an 8 win coach he'll make a move, as well he should. Keeping the status quo for recruiting or stability purposes is the outright acceptance of mediocrity.

This program and these players deserve and should demand better.

Butch isn't a bad coach, he's an excellent recruiter but just an average coach.

Solid post. I just think unless he loses 6 games he deserves one more year to show he is better than an average coach playing one of the toughest schedules in the country year in and year out. As I have stated before I think 8-9 wins years a solid years for where we are as a program.
Winning 10 or more once every 5 years is what I feel is realistic.

 

[BigZiti09]

I interpreted the post as trying to keep the buyout static so that firing him in 2018 is no more expensive than right now.


A one year extension could do that.

Well obviously. A one year extension a year later is the same.

Nothing earth shattering about Malzahn's contract IMO. Sexton got the extra year of failure money added back on and got his client more money on the front end to boot. Knowing full well that his client will likely get a new contract or get his buyout before he sees his salary go back down in year 3 and 4 of the deal.

 

[InVOLuntary]

I just don't think it is realistic. In what scenario are we denying an extension and others are seeking to hire him?

Especially at 7-5. Who wants to hire a 7-5 football coach and have to pay $3m to do so when his current employer is willing to let him go a second year in a row without an extension.

And I fully agree with your last point. High stakes game that I don't think we can afford to lose. $10.5 million at stake though. Lot of dough.

Yea, it's a wierd set of circumstances. I would say that they could publicly push it to spring. At the same time, tell him privately that an extension is off the table. In the meantime he can look for employment elsewhere.