Recruiting Forum Off-Topic Thread II

[Vols4us]

Facts have nothing to do with the climate change debate.

When was the first thermometer created? A water one by Galileo in the late 1500's. So that is the earliest base point for any type of limited data. How old is the earth? Debate over. Maybe people cause it, maybe they only contribute to it, maybe the internal temperature changes of the earth cause it, maybe the sun is getting hotter or solar winds are stirring, or whatever. There is no way to 100% factually know. So if you are in leadership as politicians controlling countries, business leaders, etc, wanting wealth redistribution you get in bed with the scientific community that is willing to sacrifice their ethics to say and do what we see happening for additional funding of their "research".

The Paris agreement was not an enforceable agreement until ratified by Congress - which would not be happening anytime soon.

Read the agreement. Then be honest with the assessment about how it handcuffs the 800 lb gorilla and lets the chimps get away with murder. It was a wealth redistribution plan in another attempt by Obama to create some sort of legacy in his mind at our expense while playing his part in globalism. If you trust communist China and Vlad to do the right thing along with the nations under their spheres of influence you are one gullible person. To trust them and not require them to fund more than their share of the action is insane.

Carry on.

 

[Bassmaster_Vol]

Facts have nothing to do with the climate change debate.

When was the first thermometer created? A water one by Galileo in the late 1500's. So that is the earliest base point for any type of limited data. How old is the earth? Debate over. Maybe people cause it, maybe they only contribute to it, maybe the internal temperature changes of the earth cause it, maybe the sun is getting hotter or solar winds are stirring, or whatever. There is no way to 100% factually know. So if you are in leadership as politicians controlling countries, business leaders, etc, wanting wealth redistribution you get in bed with the scientific community that is willing to sacrifice their ethics to say and do what we see happening for additional funding of their "research".

The Paris agreement was not an enforceable agreement until ratified by Congress - which would not be happening anytime soon.

Read the agreement. Then be honest with the assessment about how it handcuffs the 800 lb gorilla and lets the chimps get away with murder. It was a wealth redistribution plan in another attempt by Obama to create some sort of legacy in his mind at our expense while playing his part in globalism. If you trust communist China and Vlad to do the right thing along with the nations under their spheres of influence you are one gullible person. To trust them and not require them to fund more than their share of the action is insane.

Carry on.

The left does not care about the facts

 

[Catbone]

The left does not care about the facts

The party of feelings

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

You are willing to give up your personal freedoms for social benefit. I am not. I believe that people should stand on their merits. You work hard and perform your job well and you are rewarded.

It is a slippery slope. It starts with small concessions as you mentioned. Give up a little of your personal freedom for a little "security". Then you are ask to give a little more and a little more. When they start trying to take your personal firearms then they are ready to introduce the next level of government control.

I might be a little melodramatic but you have your head in the sand and so do your "socialist" friends. I have socialists in my family. They would gladly let the government control everything if it meant they didn't have to do anything. They are the type of people that don't know how to work and earn what they deserve. They blame everyone else for what they don't have and try to make you feel bad that you have more than them.

Have you ever read "Atlas Shrugged"? The parallels between the society that Ayn Rand predicted in that book and what we are seeing in the world today are haunting.

I'm not a socialist, dude. I'm a libertarian. Did you even read what I said? You're not letting yourself think rationally here.

My only point is that you don't have to misrepresent a philosophy or political system to present meaningful counter arguments. The way you're talking is part of the reason socialism has grown in America: because once teenagers grow up and realism that socialism isn't literally the devil, then they feel lied to and there's a backlash effect.

It's better off to just give an honest representation and dispassionately lay out an argument for why you're for or against an idea. And widesweeping generalizations hardly ever lead to a meaningful dialog.


As for your socialist family, they sound like real PsOS. But I know lazy good for nothing conservatives who can't accept personal responsibility and hardworking socialists as well. You can't really reduce an idea or philosophy to a person or small group of people usually. People are people. Ideas and philosophies are just that.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

That is a ridiculous comparison. Communism is the realisation of fully implemented Socialism. I'm not getting into a religious debate with you. Neither of us will be persuaded, so let's not even go there.

You missed the point. Its not a religious debate. It's not about comparing socialism and communism to Christianity and Mormonism.

It's about reducing tremendously complicated ideas or philosophies to a few sentences, which is great for middle school textbooks, but useless in adult conversations.

 

[Ulysees E. McGill]

You guys should read "State of fear" by Michael Crichton. It is a excellent novel.

 

[Rishvol]

You guys should read "State of fear" by Michael Crichton. It is a excellent novel.

Crichton is my favorite author. Every one of his book is controversial to whichever topic he writes about and the best part is all the research he put into the topics before he started writing.

 

[Ulysees E. McGill]

Crichton is my favorite author. Every one of his book is controversial to whichever topic he writes about and the best part is all the research he put into the topics before he started writing.

The thing that is great about that book is that it is not preachy either way.

 

[Rishvol]

The thing that is great about that book is that it is not preachy either way.

None of his books are but they do make you think about how "the majority of scientists" think.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

Facts have nothing to do with the climate change debate.

When was the first thermometer created? A water one by Galileo in the late 1500's. So that is the earliest base point for any type of limited data. How old is the earth? Debate over. Maybe people cause it, maybe they only contribute to it, maybe the internal temperature changes of the earth cause it, maybe the sun is getting hotter or solar winds are stirring, or whatever. There is no way to 100% factually know. So if you are in leadership as politicians controlling countries, business leaders, etc, wanting wealth redistribution you get in bed with the scientific community that is willing to sacrifice their ethics to say and do what we see happening for additional funding of their "research".

The Paris agreement was not an enforceable agreement until ratified by Congress - which would not be happening anytime soon.

Read the agreement. Then be honest with the assessment about how it handcuffs the 800 lb gorilla and lets the chimps get away with murder. It was a wealth redistribution plan in another attempt by Obama to create some sort of legacy in his mind at our expense while playing his part in globalism. If you trust communist China and Vlad to do the right thing along with the nations under their spheres of influence you are one gullible person. To trust them and not require them to fund more than their share of the action is insane.

Carry on.

I've got no problem with backing out of the agreement, but the fact that we've only had thermometers for a couple hundred years doesn't mean there aren't ways for scientists to discern what temperatures were like before those times lol

 

[VolsDoc81TX]

We can reduce emissions without redistributing American wealth to the third world.

The Socialists want to bring everyone down to the third world level. They feel bad that we live in relative luxury while other countries live in poverty. They would rather everyone be in poverty than have some developed countries able to help the third world countries develop too.

Could we just move them to the third world countries that they want to help. Win-win?

 

[Rishvol]

Could we just move them to the third world countries that they want to help. Win-win?

They would just spend their time routing and not learn anything. Like that one guy who went to North Korea and posted a political sticker...

 

[VolsDoc81TX]

The idea of socialism is that the government controls the production and distribution of goods and services. It goes against everything our country is founded on and millions have fought and died to protect. The true Socialists will attempt to redistribute the world's wealth until everyone is equal and dependent on the state to give them their job, their house, and everything else. The problem is, it will simply be existence. It won't be living. The Soviet Union is a great example of what Socialism can be. Rampant starvation, little to know ability to better yourself, and complete dependence on the government for whatever meager distributions they chose to give. There are other countries that have Luke warm Socialism but it is only because they are trying to slowly assimilate into the culture. They play on people's hearts and our desire to help those less fortunate than us. We all want to help but they try to make us feel bad because we have something that our neighbor across town doesn't. Well I worked for it and they didn't. Why do they deserve what I worked for and they didn't. Why do third world countries deserve American money and jobs while our country sinks deeper into debt? We won't be able to prop up the rest of the world very long if they keep sucking us dry to give handouts to the rest of the world.

I come from a single parent household. My Mom averaged $14k annual income. She qualified for but refused any government aid. First government aid that she would allow was my student loans. She only allowed that because I promised her that I would make good on all my student loan debt.

I worked very hard to make good that promise. I still work hard for my family.

You want nice things in America, work hard, get an education and be prosperous.

My Mother's version of the American dream was for her children to have a "better life " than she did. What she taught my sisters and I was invaluable. I miss her... :salute:

 

[Rishvol]

I come from a single parent household. My Mom averaged $14k annual income. She qualified for but refused any government aid. First government aid that she would allow was my student loans. She only allowed that because I promised her that I would make good on all my student loan debt.

I worked very hard to make good that promise. I still work hard for my family.

You want nice things in America, work hard, get an education and be prosperous.

My Mother's version of the American dream was for her children to have a "better life " than she did. What she taught my sisters and I was invaluable. I miss her... :salute:

The sad part about this is how rare that type of parenting is now. Your mother sounds like a great woman and mother. But the "don't do better than me and embarrass me" type of parenting is become too common for my liking and it's not just in lower income families (though more prominent).

 

[VolsDoc81TX]

That is a ridiculous comparison. Communism is the realisation of fully implemented Socialism. I'm not getting into a religious debate with you. Neither of us will be persuaded, so let's not even go there.

Actually Christ recommended a communistic type society. However, mankind is in general unable to live up to his standard.

 

[zhangliao04]

None of his books are but they do make you think about how "the majority of scientists" think.

I've never read any books by this author, but as a career scientist I am now intrigued by your posts contents. How does this author make you think about how the majority of scientists think?

Btw, not looking for an argument. I just enjoy seeing points of view and (civil) discussions.

 

[zhangliao04]

Actually Christ recommended a communistic type society. However, mankind is in general unable to live up to his standard.

The main problem with communism is the human element. Meaning sin.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

The main problem with communism is the human element. Meaning sin.

And just human nature basically

We're not really hard wired to be overly giving to those outside our social groups or smaller communities. So how can you expect making people be overly charitable to strangers hundreds of miles away have any chance of working that well?

 

[Glitch]

I'm not a socialist, dude. I'm a libertarian. Did you even read what I said? You're not letting yourself think rationally here.

My only point is that you don't have to misrepresent a philosophy or political system to present meaningful counter arguments. The way you're talking is part of the reason socialism has grown in America: because once teenagers grow up and realism that socialism isn't literally the devil, then they feel lied to and there's a backlash effect.

It's better off to just give an honest representation and dispassionately lay out an argument for why you're for or against an idea. And widesweeping generalizations hardly ever lead to a meaningful dialog.


As for your socialist family, they sound like real PsOS. But I know lazy good for nothing conservatives who can't accept personal responsibility and hardworking socialists as well. You can't really reduce an idea or philosophy to a person or small group of people usually. People are people. Ideas and philosophies are just that.

Darth. I do understand what you are saying. The world is not black and white. There are many people that say they are Socialists that work hard, pay their bills, and generally want to make society better. However, when you get down to the core of what socialism is meant to be, it is taking from some and giving to others. Who are they going to take from? The people that work and produce. Who are they going to give it to? The people who whine and moan about the injustices of the world. Capitalism is not a perfect system either. It has just as much ability to trample the little people as Socialism. However, in a Capitalist society that provides protections against such trampling, everyone can prosper. Capitalist societies encourage innovation and invention. They encourage new ideas and new methods to increase efficiency. People are rewarded for their ideas and innovations. In a Socialist society, a true Socialist society, you are rewarded for your ability to suffer and by how little you think of your self. Well how long can I think of others if I am not able to earn a living.

There are all kinds of people dedicated to turning our world into a global community. They don't want sovereign nations anymore. They want a one world government that doles out our planets resources, not based on how much work you put in, but by how much you need.

There is a famous quote in the WWII museum in Washington, DC. and it makes my point very clearly. Folks keep saying things like you are saying.

"Oh well they are socialist but they work hard and only want the best for us."

"I don't mind giving up a little of my personal freedom if it makes our country safer."

"The rich can afford to pay more. They have lots and we have a little. They need to pay their fair share."

History repeats itself. Not exactly, but it has shown to do so countless times before. Are we going to sit around and let it happen? Are we going to let our children be brainwashed into thinking that government is the answer to all their problems? Government has its place and its purposes. It is not to provide cell phones and high speed internet to every person in the world. It is to protect our nation through the military, develop treaties and agreements with other nations, and provide services that the private sector isn't willing or able to provide.

Here is the quote. Again, you will probably think I am being melodramatic, but so did the people in this quote until it was their turn...

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]“In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I[/FONT]
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to [/FONT][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]speak up.” [/FONT]​

[/FONT]
--Pastor Martin Niemöller, 1945

 

[bignewt]

Nothing is wrong with reducing emissions. Sending billions overseas of tax payer dollars is not so good. We need to take care of our own bidness.

That is true and the more i learn about the agreement the more I am happy we are not a part of it, it holds true to my Libertarian beliefs. However if Trump had a lick of sense he would not only back out of the agreement but announce how the US is going to GO FURTHER than the agreement and do more. That would not only be tactical but beneficial to secure our leadership role in protecting the planet.

 

[bignewt]

Darth. I do understand what you are saying. The world is not black and white. There are many people that say they are Socialists that work hard, pay their bills, and generally want to make society better. However, when you get down to the core of what socialism is meant to be, it is taking from some and giving to others. Who are they going to take from? The people that work and produce. Who are they going to give it to? The people who whine and moan about the injustices of the world. Capitalism is not a perfect system either. It has just as much ability to trample the little people as Socialism. However, in a Capitalist society that provides protections against such trampling, everyone can prosper. Capitalist societies encourage innovation and invention. They encourage new ideas and new methods to increase efficiency. People are rewarded for their ideas and innovations. In a Socialist society, a true Socialist society, you are rewarded for your ability to suffer and by how little you think of your self. Well how long can I think of others if I am not able to earn a living.

There are all kinds of people dedicated to turning our world into a global community. They don't want sovereign nations anymore. They want a one world government that doles out our planets resources, not based on how much work you put in, but by how much you need.

There is a famous quote in the WWII museum in Washington, DC. and it makes my point very clearly. Folks keep saying things like you are saying.

"Oh well they are socialist but they work hard and only want the best for us."

"I don't mind giving up a little of my personal freedom if it makes our country safer."

"The rich can afford to pay more. They have lots and we have a little. They need to pay their fair share."

History repeats itself. Not exactly, but it has shown to do so countless times before. Are we going to sit around and let it happen? Are we going to let our children be brainwashed into thinking that government is the answer to all their problems? Government has its place and its purposes. It is not to provide cell phones and high speed internet to every person in the world. It is to protect our nation through the military, develop treaties and agreements with other nations, and provide services that the private sector isn't willing or able to provide.

Here is the quote. Again, you will probably think I am being melodramatic, but so did the people in this quote until it was their turn...

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]“In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I[/FONT]
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to [/FONT][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]speak up.” [/FONT]​

[/FONT]
--Pastor Martin Niemöller, 1945

I think Darth said it best that a Socialist form of government works great for smaller homogeneous poplutations. It would never work here and he said as much. I think you guys are agreeing in a way.

 

[Glitch]

Actually Christ recommended a communistic type society. However, mankind is in general unable to live up to his standard.

Jesus espoused helping those in need. Specifically orphans and widows. He encouraged people to give up their worldly possessions because they prevent us from focusing on the love of God.

Matthew 6:21 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

However, Jesus was not against wealth or making money. He encouraged people to use their money wisely, but if something begins to draw your focus from God then you should be rid of it because it is leading you toward sin.

Matthew 5:29-30 "If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell."

Jesus knew that we would each have our temptations and He wanted to stress how important it was that we should recognize our own weaknesses and rid ourselves of them. Sin is like a giant buffet with everything in the world on it. Some people can walk right past some sin an not blink twice, while others are drawn to that like a moth to a flame. However, there is something on that buffet for each of us and we have to be able to walk away and focusing on Jesus' teaching is the best way to do just that. Jesus teaches us that helping others is good and that we should do it, but He never said that we should destroy our nation to do so. If we drain our nation of all of it's resources, then who will be left to help the widows and orphans.

I know that you probably know all this but I felt compelled to respond. :good!:

 

[Glitch]

I think Darth said it best that a Socialist form of government works great for smaller homogeneous poplutations. It would never work here and he said as much. I think you guys are agreeing in a way.

Well I do agree with that. The family is a very socialist organization. The parents earn and give through cleaning and cooking and the children consume. However, eventually the children have to start producing and/or contributing. If not, eventually the parents will be gone and then what will the children do? It is the same in a larger societal family. We must teach those that are solely consumers to produce for themselves because eventually, the producers won't be able to keep up. There will be more consumers than producers and we are rapidly approaching that tipping point. So many people are raising their kids to be consumers. Not only that, they are raising them to be leeches. A body can only handle so much leeching before there isn't enough blood to keep the body alive. Small scale socialism in family or small government organizations is not a bad thing. However, it has spread into many peoples minds as a way to run the whole world. It doesn't work on that scale though.

 

[Glitch]

That is true and the more i learn about the agreement the more I am happy we are not a part of it, it holds true to my Libertarian beliefs. However if Trump had a lick of sense he would not only back out of the agreement but announce how the US is going to GO FURTHER than the agreement and do more. That would not only be tactical but beneficial to secure our leadership role in protecting the planet.

I was really hoping for that too. I thought it was telling that the CEOs that came out against Trump's decision yesterday. They could have easily said, that it is great that we are not going to be funding this wealth redistribution but we are still going to find ways to uphold the emission reduction sentiment that was the basis for the agreement. I would have liked Trump to make a statement to that affect too. I think it would have gone a long way towards earning goodwill of the environment friendly folks if he had also announced that the US would continue looking for ways to reduce our emissions while saving our country billions of dollars in fees under the Paris Agreement.

 

[Glitch]

I come from a single parent household. My Mom averaged $14k annual income. She qualified for but refused any government aid. First government aid that she would allow was my student loans. She only allowed that because I promised her that I would make good on all my student loan debt.

I worked very hard to make good that promise. I still work hard for my family.

You want nice things in America, work hard, get an education and be prosperous.

My Mother's version of the American dream was for her children to have a "better life " than she did. What she taught my sisters and I was invaluable. I miss her... :salute:

My mom was also a single mom. I watched her work hard day in and day out. She had help along the way but she taught me to work hard and earn what I get in this world. She also taught me to be kind and generous to others. No matter how bad you think you might have it, there is somebody worse off than you. You might have nothing, but someone out there has less than that. There are plenty of ways to help without spending money.

Your mom sounds like she was a fantastic lady. Kudos to her for raising her kids to be the best they can be. :good!: