Recruiting forum off topic thread (no politics, covid, or hot button issues)

And yet we are spending a little time discussing it on a stupid internet forum...

No one is stating its in the top 1000 problems facing society. Just debating who actually finds it offensive, thats all. An answer that none of us can truly know.

Come on Newt, you know only one side gets to really say what is and isn’t offensive.
Bud light commercials for instance, that $h!t is super offensive! Oh, and female soccer players. Oh, and people who prefer to be seen as humans and not caricatures and will take away a team name that means nothing to me in the process of fighting for that.
 
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Come on Newt, you know only one side gets to really say what is and isn’t offensive.
Bud light commercials for instance, that $h!t is super offensive! Oh, and female soccer players. Oh, and people who prefer to be seen as humans and not caricatures and will take away a team name that means nothing to me in the process of fighting for that.


There are plenty of instances of over-wokeness. It's a by-product of questioning, of empathy. When it comes to the "Redskins" however, it's pretty easy to ask yourself does that seem too far? Common sense should prevail.
 
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https://www.nagaeducation.org/misconception-redskins-is-racist

90% of Native Americans disagree with you/that statement.



Redskins / Redmen is a Native American iconic name and is revered by the vast majority of Native Americans and general public alike. Redskins / Redmen represents honor, respect and pride for Native American culture. Redskins / Redmen is and has been a self-identifying term for Natives since the early 1800s.



Context and intent matter. Activists intend to make Redskins / Redmen a pejorative term. NAGA disagrees and chooses to elevate and reclaim the Name Redskins / Redmen.



School boards and sports organizations have the opportunity to make this word officially hateful or honorable by their actions, for this generation and all those that follow. Choose wisely and keep this word from ever hurting others.



Native names and imagery are protected, defended and saved by the Native American Guardian’s Association (NAGA). Educate not Eradicate - learn more here - nagaeducation.org



######

It's not a term that the white man created. It's actually a term that the Indians themselves created. I just think we have people in this country that try and gin up problems that don't exist." ~ Chief Robert “Two Eagles” Green of the Patawomeck Tribe

“Redskins” or “Red people” are the most authentic terms as the Native Americans used a color system to identify others. In the late 1600s and 1700s, the term was first used by Native Americans to self-describe and distinguish themselves from the White man and Black man. "Redskins" was first used as an inclusive expression of solidarity by multi-tribal delegations. Some early written recordings of the use of the word Redskins:



  1. In 1812, Chief Meskwaki Black Thunder is quoted, “I turn to all, red skins and white skins, and challenge an accusation against me.”
  2. In 1822, it is recorded that Big Elk (chief of the Omaha tribe) self-described himself as a Red Skin. In conversation with President James Monroe: “I am almost the only Red Skin opposed to war.”

The historical Redskin actually has nothing to do with the color or race of the Indian at all. It is specific to those early, red-painted native warriors who were known for their bravery, skill and fighting spirit. The Red Men were Red-painted warriors ready for battle.



Redskins is derived from Native Americans’ use of the blood root plant and dye as ceremonial preparation for war. Redskin tribes used it to cover their shaven heads, arms, torsos and legs. They believed this color would protect them like a spiritual suit of armor - in a belief that they had made a connection with their war spirits who would guide them and provide strength and courage. Red symbolized blood, energy and power.



Redskins during a certain period of history was used as a pejorative term. It has long since been elevated to a term of respect, admiration and reverence.

As with many words in our language, intent, tone and context play a part in how words are interpreted. Anyone calling Redskins “racist” when it’s used as a self-identifying Native American term, simply because it’s used positively, is an act of finding the worst in it. Ignoring its intent, tone and context deliberately misinterprets its use. Why, when 90% of Native Americans feel differently? They have the right to elevate the term, and we have a duty as a community to state our intent and context, with the blessings of groups like the Native American Guardians Association who represent saving and defending native imagery in a positive way.

https://www.nagaeducation.org/leadership

Chief Walt Brown III
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Chief Walt Brown III served eighteen years as Chief of the Cheroenhaka (Nottoway) Indian Tribe and fifteen years as Chairman of the Cheroenhaka (Nottoway) Indian Tribal Heritage Foundation; to include, eight years on the Southampton County Board of Supervisors; to include, twenty-three years of service in the US Army, as a Commission officer, LT Colonel, US Army (Ret), with a wealth of leadership, managerial, supervisory, and policy execution experience in a wide array of duties germane to logistics, management, operations, project management, contract administration, public relations, and team building.

That's one board member. It's interesting to go read some of the board bios, and give some space for the thought that their perspectives may be genuine.

Eunice was an active member of the Spirit Lake Committee for Understanding and Respect and was instrumental in gathering names on a petition and putting the Fighting Sioux name and logo issue on the ballot, where Spirit Lake tribal members had a chance to vote on the Sioux name. The Spirit Lake Tribal members voted in the largest election turnout ever and voted by a margin of 2 to 1 in April of 2009 at 67% to keep the Sioux name at UND. She also authored a book “Aren’t We Sioux Enough” ironic she got the idea of the title of her book from a federal judge who presided over their case against the NCAA.

Pretty Deer was intrigued & more than happy to join because she felt it would someday all of our names would be eradicated. Since then she started attending meetings at schools that were in danger of losing their Indian names and images in Oregon. She said she could see how much pride the students and parents took in having a Native identity to represent their school. Pretty Deer states there’s always that one question, why? I kept thinking to myself there’s no one to help support these people and said I always believed if it’s not broken, why try to fix something that isn’t broke, I’ve seen the sadness in the students when their pride was taken away & they lost their Indian name and image at the school. That is why Pretty Deer joined forces with NAGA to fight back against the destructive eradication movement going on in the nation. That is why she is up for the challenge. #educatenoteradicate

I joined NAGA in 2021. I believe in what we stand for. To fight against todays, cancel culture trying to erase all Native history by using scare tactics to get schools and sports teams to remove Native names and imagery. This is wrong. I am proud to be represented by schools and sports teams, as long as it is not demeaning or derogatory in any way. I have yet to come across any like that. There have been some caricature images that I agree should not be used. This is one reason why NAGA is here. To Educate and not Eradicate. To educate on the proper way to honor all Native Americans.

The goal of Educate not Eradicate is to propagate positive Native American education in schools, to include modification of imagery where necessary and to promote traditions among all culture groups as part of an education enhancement movement based on nation’s vision of E. Pluribus Unum or “From many we are one”.
 
There are plenty of instances of over-wokeness. It's a by-product of questioning, of empathy. When it comes to the "Redskins" however, it's pretty easy to ask yourself does that seem too far? Common sense should prevail.

Agreed. There are two sides in the culture war, but some issues actually lie outside that and should be above the petty politics. But it’s funny that by saying calling teams names like Redskins is not, in fact, honoring a culture is instantly taken as a “leftist” stance on here.
 
Agreed. There are two sides in the culture war, but some issues actually lie outside that and should be above the petty politics. But it’s funny that by saying calling teams names like Redskins is not, in fact, honoring a culture is instantly taken as a “leftist” stance on here.
It sounds like there's a segment of natives that embrace these things as an honorable part of their heritage, and see this wokeness as a bunch of non-natives informing them how they should feel, while wiping culture of their heritage.

It sounds like it's segments of the supposed-offended population that are making it a 'leftist' 'woke' culture issue, and they are indeed the ones claiming that the use of these name and images honor their culture and preserve their histories.

My name is David Finkenbinder – Wanblee Ohitika (Brave Eagle).I am a registered member of the Crow Creek Sioux Tribe, South Dakota. My Uncle, also registered with the Crow Creek Sioux Tribe gave me my name. I was born in Denver Colorado and lived there until I moved to a family farm in Yuma Colorado. I graduated from Yuma High School as a proud Yuma Indian. I received my AAS from Aims Community College in Electronic Data Processing – EDP/BIS. After graduating from Aims they offered me a programming position. I was employed by Aims for 9 years. Then moved on to an animal health care distributer and built their EDI system to be in compliance with the Animal Health Industry – EDI – Electronic Data Interchange. I was there for 11 years. Then did contract programming for FedEx Freight for 2.5 years before joining Spyder Active Sports as their EDI Programmer Analyst for 6 years. Then I joined Versant Health as a Sr. EDI Data Analyst Programmer.

I’m in a unique position and I can speak for both Native and non-Natives alike. My Great Grandfather – 11 generations back - came to America on the Mayflower. While my family on my father’s side came to America by ship, my family on my mother’s side was already here with trusting open arms. I joined NAGA in 2021. I believe in what we stand for. To fight against todays, cancel culture trying to erase all Native history by using scare tactics to get schools and sports teams to remove Native names and imagery. This is wrong. I am proud to be represented by schools and sports teams, as long as it is not demeaning or derogatory in any way. I have yet to come across any like that. There have been some caricature images that I agree should not be used. This is one reason why NAGA is here. To Educate and not Eradicate. To educate on the proper way to honor all Native Americans.

https://www.nagaeducation.org/leadership

Pretty Deer states there’s always that one question, why? I kept thinking to myself there’s no one to help support these people and said I always believed if it’s not broken, why try to fix something that isn’t broke, I’ve seen the sadness in the students when their pride was taken away & they lost their Indian name and image at the school. That is why Pretty Deer joined forces with NAGA to fight back against the destructive eradication movement going on in the nation. That is why she is up for the challenge. #educatenoteradicate

I joined NAGA to fight against the woke liberalism trying to erase my culture from todays schools. Native American imagery and verbiage is not offensive if used respectfully and dignified. Over the years there has been some imagery used improperly, but that is why NAGA is here. To educate schools and individuals the proper way to show honor and tribute to Native Americans.
 
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So a few well-spoken seemingly right-wing Native Americans feel "Redskins" is a moniker to be proud of. Wonder what they thought of the Indians logo? How would a pro team called the "Blackskins" be received?

Sounds like all your examples are fighting "wokeness" more than anything. Wonder if they also trade their NAGA hats for MAGA hats depending on which camera crew shows up?
 
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So a few well-spoken seemingly right-wing Native Americans feel "Redskins" is a moniker to be proud of. Wonder what they thought of the Indians logo? How would a pro team called the "Blackskins" be received?

Sounds like all your examples are fighting "wokeness" more than anything. Wonder if they also trade their NAGA hats for MAGA hats depending on which camera crew shows up?
That's an odd answer, when I was basically agreeing with you that it's a complex subject that deserves a more complex discussion.

But, considering that the quote I responded to was laying the blame for making it a "woke" conversation on VN, I figured it pertinent to show who's claiming to make it so.

The Indian logo? That was probably covered in my previous quote: "I am proud to be represented by schools and sports teams, as long as it is not demeaning or derogatory in any way. I have yet to come across any like that. There have been some caricature images that I agree should not be used."

The question of Blackskins would obviously depend on the term's history and context. If you read this group's claims, the term redskin has a much different context, and they're fighting the *addition* of baggage where none previously existed.

And yes, my examples were fighting wokeness. That was the context of the post I answered.

Per NAGA/MAGA, that's a cheap way to have a discussion. "Let's just try to broad-brush them into another group I hope we can broad-brush." And "cameras"? Are you assuming their stated perspective isn't authentic?

Otherwise, what does it matter if they are conservative natives? Is it your view that being a conservative native undermines their right to their native perspective? Perhaps you can help me with your point there.
 
Do you tire out other people you talk with?

The group is designed to grandstand and push an agenda, their own, otherwise why exist?

As for the rest of the rambling, I'll condense it into yes, there are natives on both sides of the fence when it comes to what is deemed "offensive." Conservative leaning natives would consider "wokeness" the enemy while liberal natives would consider any mascot borrowed from their culture to be yet another stolen piece of their heritage by the white patriarchy.

So that leaves us with everyone else and what is the right thing to do. For me, it is rethinking what is a positive and negative reflection. Seminoles and Braves, seem positive to me but that's me. Redskins does not have any connection to a positive connotation you can directly tie it to. Everyone gets to have their own opinion, although Native Americans have an actual dog in the fight, even if it a pretty obscure fight that really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

I'm ready for football.
 
Do you tire out other people you talk with?

The group is designed to grandstand and push an agenda, their own, otherwise why exist?

As for the rest of the rambling, I'll condense it into yes, there are natives on both sides of the fence when it comes to what is deemed "offensive." Conservative leaning natives would consider "wokeness" the enemy while liberal natives would consider any mascot borrowed from their culture to be yet another stolen piece of their heritage by the white patriarchy.

So that leaves us with everyone else and what is the right thing to do. For me, it is rethinking what is a positive and negative reflection. Seminoles and Braves, seem positive to me but that's me. Redskins does not have any connection to a positive connotation you can directly tie it to. Everyone gets to have their own opinion, although Native Americans have an actual dog in the fight, even if it a pretty obscure fight that really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

I'm ready for football.
Not that I know of, most people I talk with seem to thoroughly enjoy the experience. But then most of them don't make bald claims like "That group isn't who you think they are" and then get defensive and snippy when asked who they are.

You answered "I'm not doing your homework for you."

Your answer per homework made me suspect that you hadn't done much homework at all, else why be so defensive and evasive? I'd already pulled their site up, looked at their claims.

To show that they aren't who we thik they are, you responded with references to some vague articles. The quote admitted the accusations were unproven, and coming from "activist" groups. So it would seem that your "homework" consisted of making assumptions about one activist group over another, and then making objective truth claims about one over the other.

If that's your homework, I have to admit that I'm relieved that you didn't do mine for me, as it would have been a disservice to myself to have allowed that.

So, here we are. We have a group of Natives sharing their version of the history of the phrase redskin/redman. We have me asking if they are who they claim to be. We have you making objective statements about them, apparently because you distrust conservative natives, but also because: who can really know?

You say:

Redskins does not have any connection to a positive connotation you can directly tie it to.

Which either proved that your "homework" didn't include researching the group you made objective claims about, or you've assumed them to be liars.

90% of Native Americans disagree with you/that statement.



Redskins / Redmen is a Native American iconic name and is revered by the vast majority of Native Americans and general public alike. Redskins / Redmen represents honor, respect and pride for Native American culture. Redskins / Redmen is and has been a self-identifying term for Natives since the early 1800s.



Context and intent matter. Activists intend to make Redskins / Redmen a pejorative term. NAGA disagrees and chooses to elevate and reclaim the Name Redskins / Redmen.



School boards and sports organizations have the opportunity to make this word officially hateful or honorable by their actions, for this generation and all those that follow. Choose wisely and keep this word from ever hurting others.



Native names and imagery are protected, defended and saved by the Native American Guardian’s Association (NAGA). Educate not Eradicate - learn more here - nagaeducation.org



######

But alas, it sounds like you're terribly drained by the struggle of two way dialog, so I'll let you go.

I hope you have a good day.
 
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So a few well-spoken seemingly right-wing Native Americans feel "Redskins" is a moniker to be proud of. Wonder what they thought of the Indians logo? How would a pro team called the "Blackskins" be received?

Sounds like all your examples are fighting "wokeness" more than anything. Wonder if they also trade their NAGA hats for MAGA hats depending on which camera crew shows up?
Once again….. why can’t it be whiteskins? I’m onboard with that.
 
For those interested in a bit of homework on the whole "redskin" tussle, it would appear that NAGA is correct. The redefinition of "redskin" into a racial slur looks to be a comparatively recent phenomenon--it would seem, a fallacious claim made by a single individual. In other words, looks like someone lied for court, and it's grown legs.

Susan Harjo led a court case against the Redskins, seeking to kill the trademark on the basis that it is offensive and irredeemable. She claimed that it was coined in reference to Europeans presenting bloody scalps for payment when killing natives.

Looks like linguistic research shows that to be untrue, and it seems to have been a translation out of Indian languages, as self-reference, with both sides using it often with senses of respect and inclusion.

Don't miss that point. It's a phrase that originated in their languages. It's their self-identification.

If the linguistic research is true... Since the Redskins were renamed in the 1930, well before the cultural lie was perpetrated, the renaming has an interesting context. The owner of the team named the team "Redskins" to *honor* their coach at the time, who was native American. It was not a slur. It was a compliment! I guess, basically, "We want our team to reflect our coach".

Here's something interesting. The linguistic research quoted was published by the Smithsonian's Goddard, but I'm not finding it online anymore. I'm finding lots of references to it, but not the source.

But it sounds like NAGA has a point. "Redskin" apparently has a long, storied cultural meaning to Native peoples. A recent phenomenon is to add baggage to it and force it out of American culture. They see that as a disservice, and erasing a proud history.

I suspect they'd disagree with the statement: "Redskins does not have any connection to a positive connotation you can directly tie it to."

At the very least, it's an interesting perspective that's not much heard right now.

Language Log: The Origin of Redskin (upenn.edu)
 
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For those interested in a bit of homework on the whole "redskin" tussle, it would appear that NAGA is correct. The redefinition of "redskin" into a racial slur looks to be a comparatively recent phenomenon--it would seem, a fallacious claim made by a single individual. In other words, looks like someone lied for court, and it's grown legs.

Susan Harjo led a court case against the Redskins, seeking to kill the trademark on the basis that it is offensive and irredeemable. She claimed that it was coined in reference to Europeans presenting bloody scalps for payment when killing natives.

Looks like linguistic research shows that to be untrue, and it seems to have been a translation out of Indian languages, as self-reference, with both sides using it often with senses of respect and inclusion.

Don't miss that point. It's a phrase that originated in their languages. It's their self-identification.

If the linguistic research is true... Since the Redskins were renamed in the 1930, well before the cultural lie was perpetrated, the renaming has an interesting context. The owner of the team named the team "Redskins" to *honor* their coach at the time, who was native American. It was not a slur. It was a compliment! I guess, basically, "We want our team to reflect our coach".

Here's something interesting. The linguistic research quoted was published by the Smithsonian's Goddard, but I'm not finding it online anymore. I'm finding lots of references to it, but not the source.

But it sounds like NAGA has a point. "Redskin" apparently has a long, storied cultural meaning to Native peoples. A recent phenomenon is to add baggage to it and force it out of American culture. They see that as a disservice, and erasing a proud history.

I suspect they'd disagree with the statement: "Redskins does not have any connection to a positive connotation you can directly tie it to."

At the very least, it's an interesting perspective that's not much heard right now.

Language Log: The Origin of Redskin (upenn.edu)

I had read that about them naming the team after the coach as a way to pay homage and honor him. Some people just like to be offended and look for the slightest thing they can find to try and call out others for their "racism" and other "isms" as appropriate. The world has plenty of real injustices that need to be righted without inventing fictitious ones to go after.
 
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I had read that about them naming the team after the coach as a way to pay homage and honor him. Some people just like to be offended and look for the slightest thing they can find to try and call out others for their "racism" and other "isms" as appropriate. The world has plenty of real injustices that need to be righted without inventing fictitious ones to go after.
What's interesting, if the linked article is true, is that the "offenses" started from a bald faced lie. What's also interesting, if the article is true, is that the offense/lie was defended with the use of racism, by claiming, basically, that white people have no say in the historic reality of the word because all Europeans were racist and saw Native Americans as primarily sub-human, so apparently every reference to a native by whites was inherently racist.

Goddard's research and documentation seems to have disproved both the history of the word, as well as the accusation that all European uses of the term were offensive and racist.

I won't review the evidence in detail because Goddard's paper is short enough and accessible enough that if you are interested you should read it yourself. I'll just summarize it. Goddard shows that the term redskin is a translation from native American languages of a term used by native Americans for themselves. Harjo's claim that it "had its origins in the practice of presenting bloody red skins and scalps as proof of Indian kill for bounty payments" is unsupported by any evidence.⁴ The term entered popular usage via the novels of James Fenimore Cooper. In the early- to mid-nineteenth century the term was neutral, not pejorative, and indeed was often used in contexts in which whites spoke of Indians in positive terms. Goddard concludes:

Cooper's use of redskin as a Native American in-group term was entirely authentic, reflecting both the accurate perception of the Indian self-image and the evolving respect among whites for the Indians' distinct cultural perspective, whatever its prospects. The descent of this word into obloquy is a phenomenon of more recent times.​
The response to Goddard's paper is disappointing. Other than reiterating the unsubstantiated and implausible theory that the term owes its origin to scalping, Harjo and others have merely waved their hands, asserting that as Indians they know differently without presenting any evidence whatsoever. A typical example is found in this Native Village article, which quotes Harjo as follows:

I'm very familiar with white men who uphold the judicious speech of white men. Europeans were not using high-minded language. [To them] we were only human when it came to territory, land cessions and whose side you were on.​
The only point here that even resembles an argument is the bald assertion that Europeans never spoke of Indians other than disparagingly. This is not true. Evidence to the contrary is explicitly cited by Goddard. What is more disturbing is that Harjo's primary response to Goddard is ad hominem: that as a white man what he says is not credible. Whether he is white, red, or green is of course utterly irrelevant, as thinking people have known since at least the Middle Ages. Goddard presents his evidence in detail, with citations to the original sources. You can evaluate it yourself, and you need not rely on his statements of fact but can, if you are willing to devote some time and effort, check out the sources yourself. Furthermore, without the slightest evidence Harjo imputes to Goddard not merely bias but racism, a charge which, based, as her own words reveal, entirely on racial stereotyping, merely reflects back on herself.

As mentioned, I haven't reviewed the evidence, as I can't find the paper, but I have found enough supporting references online so as not to doubt that his was Goddard's findings. (The article is from 2002.) Also note that the quoted article is hosted by upenn.edu, for whatever that's worth.
 
didn't think of it this way but makes sense

Native American writer and attorney Gyasi Ross compares Native American use of variations of the word "redskin" with African-American use of variations of the word "******"; specifically Natives calling each other "skins" as analogous to "*****". Ross argues that the use of terms by some members of minority communities does not mean that the same may be used by outsiders; this is generally recognized by white people with regard to black expressions, yet whites feel free to say how Natives should feel about "redskin". Ross also notes that there is no consensus among Natives regarding either opposition to the Washington team's use of the name, or the importance of the issue compared to more immediate concerns.[69] However, in response to the argument that Native Americans ought to focus on social issues larger than a team name, Ross stated that "Native people shouldn't be forced to choose between living or racial discrimination. Those are false binaries."
 
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