Religious debate (split from main board)

[T-TownVol]

Legalism doesn't prevent lawlessness. Legalism is the OPPOSITE of lawlessness (the definition of legalism being "strict adherence to the law").

You are correct, we are required to follow His commands after we are saved. That is something we must do.

Revelation 2:10 Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Your crown will be bigger than mine.....happy?

 

[T-TownVol]

If everyone deep down knows about God and what is right and wrong, how is this disagreement happening?

Man has created all these "rules/religions" that make him feel better about earning salvation.

 

[ridethelightening]

I have never said that we shouldn't. The point that you are missing is that we are required to follow his commands AFTER we are saved.
Legalism prevents lawlessness? This is your arguement?

See salute, this is where t-town loses me. He believes you can turn your back and fall away. He believes believers will "show" their faith, but he believes the only thing required for salvation is believing.
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[salutethehill]

Your crown will be bigger than mine.....happy?

Please explain, with scripture.

 

[IPorange]

Man has created all these "rules/religions" that make him feel better about earning salvation.

I could see that. We do love to complicate everything.

 

[ridethelightening]

So one of these two parties is choosing to not know how these things work, even though they are choosing to accept Christ?

God is a loving God, but a just God. He asks us to do things the right way.

To answer your question, we are discussing how one actually accepts Christ
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[ridethelightening]

I could see that. We do love to complicate everything.

You know you want to believe. Just let yourself for a minute think about all that God could bless you with
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[T-TownVol]

Please explain, with scripture.

Trying to lighten the mood does not play with you huh?

 

[salutethehill]

Trying to lighten the mood does not play with you huh?

My mood is the only thing light about me.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

This is where you totally confuse me. 1.) I can believe in Christ and not keep his commandments. Of course, if I believe in Christ and want to enter into the Kingdom of God, I will keep the commandments. Where do you see that faith and faith alone grants you salvation? And how many times does it have to say keep the commandments so that I might know your good deeds for you to understand we are always working for the Lord to prove we love him?
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1.) I never once said this or slightly implied it.

2.) Easy...... Let us start with John 3:16.

Merely taking verse 16 out of that chapter, and applying a doctrine to it is not taking the context of the chapter into account, something vitally important when interpreting any portion of Scripture. So let's do that..... yeah......

[SIZE=-1]In context, Jesus is discussing the finer points of salvation with Nicodemus, a Jewish Pharisee. Jesus tells Nicodemus he must be born again John 3:3, which can be translated "Born from above." So, when saying all we must do is historically believe in Jesus and for that using John 3:16 as a proof-text, it is incorrect Biblical interpretation. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]In fact, the Greek word, pisteuo, which is translated 'believe' in John 3:16, literally means 'to put in trust with, to entrust, to commit to trust', and is derived from the word pistikos, which translates as 'trustworthy' or 'genuine.' [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]In other words, a belief in Christ is placing one's life in His hands and trusting Him to take care of it. This implies much more than intellectual belief and actually is more in line with the rest of Scripture.
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Further on in John, we can gain further insights into what belief entails by looking at the ministry of the Spirit: "When the Holy Spirit comes, He will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment; in regard to sin, because men do not believe in Me; in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see Me no longer; and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned." John 16:8-11
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Verse 9 puts unbelief and sin in a direct causal relationship; sin identifies unbelief, so that those who continue to sin without remorse or repentance are not given the luxury of saying they believe. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]

[SIZE=-1]This is what I mean when I say faith/believe.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]

[SIZE=-1]From here on out when quoting from the New Testament, I'll use the New King James Version. The New Testament is quite clear in telling how we are to be saved. "Therefore having been justified by faith; we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ", declares Romans 5:1. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Justification is the process used by God alone to erase someone's sins and to declare them righteous. Romans 5:1 is one verse of many stating this, by Him, everyone who believes is justified Acts 13:39, "Who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification." Romans 4:25. "Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith." Galatians 3:24.
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]3.) What justifies us? Scripture makes it quite clear. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Faith does!
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]In fact, Romans 4 and Romans 5 are two excellent faith chapters. This faith is God's gift given to us, apart from anything we do; Ephesians 2:8 makes this clear, "For by (past tense) grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]This faith is a true saving faith. Therefore, having been (past tense) justified. It's not based on us at all; it's based totally and completely on the finished work of Jesus Christ. "So when Jesus had received the sour win, He said, 'It is finished!' And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit." John 19:30. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Jesus said it is finished, not almost finished. In the Greek language, the original language of the New Testament, the word 'finished' is tetelestai. That word in the Greek language of the day was a term used by accountants; it means the debt is paid in full. Faith is the thing which justifies us Romans 5:1, it is what saves us Ephesians 2:8; it is not to do with our own works Ephesians 2:9. This faith is able to do this, as it is not based on anything we do, but what Christ did for us.[/SIZE]

4.) Heck I even answer you old testament question............... you have me rolling now!



Father Abraham.... had many sons........ sorry.....

[SIZE=-1]"What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? 'Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.' Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness." Romans 4:1-5.
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]"Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham before hand, saying, 'In you all the nations shall be blessed.' So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. For as many as are the works of the law are under the curse, for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.' But that no one is justified by the law of in the sight of God is evident, for 'the just shall live by faith.' Yet the law is not of faith, but 'the man who does them shall live by them.'" Galatians 3:7-12. Faith alone justifies, apart from works of the law.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]What is the role of works you ask??????????[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Well....... the Scripture makes that clear, but these works do not add to justification; they are not meritorious. Ephesians 2:10 tells us from where these works come, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Ephesians 2:8-9 should never be quoted without verse 10, but that's exactly how it works; grace through faith saves, not by things which we can do, so we cannot boast. Yes works do play a part, however they are not works of our own, but works which God has planned for us. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Furthermore, 1 Timothy 1:4 tells us we can only do God's work by faith. In fact, the Bible makes it clear that we cannot do any works without Christ, John 15:5, "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing." [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Apart from Christ we do nothing. 1 Corinthians 2:14, "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]We cannot even know what works we should do without God's Spirit, and we do not get God's Spirit, without faith, which saves Ephesians 2:8; Romans 5:1.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]:hi:​

[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

 

[T-TownVol]

I could see that. We do love to complicate everything.

Makes the human ego feel soooo much better about himself.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

My mood is the only thing light about me.

Don't worry honey, I still think you are a sexy beast!

:air_kiss:

 

[OrangeEmpire]

I could see that. We do love to complicate everything.

 

[ridethelightening]

OE, I'm not condemning anybody to hell. I'm all for people believing in Christ. The more the merrier.

I just believe with all my heart that believing and being baptized saves me. Jesus told me so

Mark 16: 15-16
And he said unto them, go into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, and he that does not believe shall be condemned."

Belief and baptism come before saving.
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[T-TownVol]

OE, I'm not condemning anybody to hell. I'm all for people believing in Christ. The more the merrier.

I just believe with all my heart that believing and being baptized saves me. Jesus told me so

Mark 16: 15-16
And he said unto them, go into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, and he that does not believe shall be condemned."

Belief and baptism come before saving.
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You do realize that new testament baptism is with the Holy Spirit, don't you?

 

[OrangeEmpire]

OE, I'm not condemning anybody to hell. I'm all for people believing in Christ. The more the merrier.

I just believe with all my heart that believing and being baptized saves me. Jesus told me so

Mark 16: 15-16
And he said unto them, go into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, and he that does not believe shall be condemned."

Belief and baptism come before saving.
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This is the key, you can't prove it through scripture.

 

[ridethelightening]

You do realize that new testament baptism is with the Holy Spirit, don't you?

Yes, I surely do. I just don't know how much plainer it can get

Acts 8: 36 And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized? 38 And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. 39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing.
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[ridethelightening]

This is the key, you can't prove it through scripture.

Yet, I continue to do it over and over again
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[salutethehill]

1.) I never once said this or slightly implied it.

2.) Easy...... Let us start with John 3:16.

Merely taking verse 16 out of that chapter, and applying a doctrine to it is not taking the context of the chapter into account, something vitally important when interpreting any portion of Scripture. So let's do that..... yeah......

[SIZE=-1]In context, Jesus is discussing the finer points of salvation with Nicodemus, a Jewish Pharisee. Jesus tells Nicodemus he must be born again John 3:3, which can be translated "Born from above." So, when saying all we must do is historically believe in Jesus and for that using John 3:16 as a proof-text, it is incorrect Biblical interpretation. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]In fact, the Greek word, pisteuo, which is translated 'believe' in John 3:16, literally means 'to put in trust with, to entrust, to commit to trust', and is derived from the word pistikos, which translates as 'trustworthy' or 'genuine.' [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]In other words, a belief in Christ is placing one's life in His hands and trusting Him to take care of it. This implies much more than intellectual belief and actually is more in line with the rest of Scripture.
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Further on in John, we can gain further insights into what belief entails by looking at the ministry of the Spirit: "When the Holy Spirit comes, He will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment; in regard to sin, because men do not believe in Me; in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see Me no longer; and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned." John 16:8-11
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Verse 9 puts unbelief and sin in a direct causal relationship; sin identifies unbelief, so that those who continue to sin without remorse or repentance are not given the luxury of saying they believe. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]

[SIZE=-1]This is what I mean when I say faith/believe.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]

[SIZE=-1]From here on out when quoting from the New Testament, I'll use the New King James Version. The New Testament is quite clear in telling how we are to be saved. "Therefore having been justified by faith; we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ", declares Romans 5:1. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Justification is the process used by God alone to erase someone's sins and to declare them righteous. Romans 5:1 is one verse of many stating this, by Him, everyone who believes is justified Acts 13:39, "Who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification." Romans 4:25. "Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith." Galatians 3:24.
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]3.) What justifies us? Scripture makes it quite clear. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Faith does!
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]In fact, Romans 4 and Romans 5 are two excellent faith chapters. This faith is God's gift given to us, apart from anything we do; Ephesians 2:8 makes this clear, "For by (past tense) grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]This faith is a true saving faith. Therefore, having been (past tense) justified. It's not based on us at all; it's based totally and completely on the finished work of Jesus Christ. "So when Jesus had received the sour win, He said, 'It is finished!' And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit." John 19:30. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Jesus said it is finished, not almost finished. In the Greek language, the original language of the New Testament, the word 'finished' is tetelestai. That word in the Greek language of the day was a term used by accountants; it means the debt is paid in full. Faith is the thing which justifies us Romans 5:1, it is what saves us Ephesians 2:8; it is not to do with our own works Ephesians 2:9. This faith is able to do this, as it is not based on anything we do, but what Christ did for us.[/SIZE]

4.) Heck I even answer you old testament question............... you have me rolling now!



Father Abraham.... had many sons........ sorry.....

[SIZE=-1]"What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? 'Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.' Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness." Romans 4:1-5.
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]"Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham before hand, saying, 'In you all the nations shall be blessed.' So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. For as many as are the works of the law are under the curse, for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.' But that no one is justified by the law of in the sight of God is evident, for 'the just shall live by faith.' Yet the law is not of faith, but 'the man who does them shall live by them.'" Galatians 3:7-12. Faith alone justifies, apart from works of the law.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]What is the role of works you ask??????????[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Well....... the Scripture makes that clear, but these works do not add to justification; they are not meritorious. Ephesians 2:10 tells us from where these works come, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Ephesians 2:8-9 should never be quoted without verse 10, but that's exactly how it works; grace through faith saves, not by things which we can do, so we cannot boast. Yes works do play a part, however they are not works of our own, but works which God has planned for us. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Furthermore, 1 Timothy 1:4 tells us we can only do God's work by faith. In fact, the Bible makes it clear that we cannot do any works without Christ, John 15:5, "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing." [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Apart from Christ we do nothing. 1 Corinthians 2:14, "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]We cannot even know what works we should do without God's Spirit, and we do not get God's Spirit, without faith, which saves Ephesians 2:8; Romans 5:1.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]:hi:​

[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

Wow, that's a lot to read. An important scripture to remember:

Psalm 119 160 The entirety of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever.

We are certainly justified by faith, but not faith alone.

You picked some great scriptures to include, but you left out a few:

Romans 1 5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

Romans 16 26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith—

We do works of obedience to show our faith, just as James says.

James 2 18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

You mentioned the basis to one of my favorite songs - John 15:5 ...he who abides in Me and I in him bears much fruit...
How do we abide in Christ?

1 John 3:4-6 (speaking to Christians) 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

How do we not sin? Obedience.

This isn't to say that we won't sin.
We are to try to NOT sin.
Why? Obedience.
When we sin, we are to confess those sins to Christ. Why? Obedience.
We are also to repent of those sins.
Why? Obedience.
Why would we obey Christ?
Because he is the "author of eternal salvation to those who obey him." Hebrews 5:9

 

[salutethehill]

Yes, I surely do. I just don't know how much plainer it can get

Acts 8: 36 And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized? 38 And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. 39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing.
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When did he go away rejoicing? AFTER he was baptized. I wonder why? Why didn't Philip say, "you don't need to be baptized, you're good."

The events leading up to that are equally important:

Acts 8 34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”

In preaching Jesus to him, Philip must have mentioned baptism. Why? Because Jesus and baptism go hand-in-hand.

 

[ridethelightening]

When did he go away rejoicing? AFTER he was baptized. I wonder why? Why didn't Philip say, "you don't need to be baptized, you're good."

The events leading up to that are equally important:

Acts 8 34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”

In preaching Jesus to him, Philip must have mentioned baptism. Why? Because Jesus and baptism go hand-in-hand.

I thought about this after I posted mine. Why would the Eunich feel the need to be baptized at all?
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[salutethehill]

I thought about this after I posted mine. Why would the Eunich feel the need to be baptized at all?
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A better question is why would ANYONE feel the need to be baptized at all.

 

[ridethelightening]

A better question is why would ANYONE feel the need to be baptized at all.

Because the Bible is pretty clear on it?
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[ridethelightening]

Because the Bible is pretty clear on it?
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Oh wait, I like because we are out preaching the gospel to all the world better
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[ridethelightening]

It has gotten a little quiet in here, but I would like to say thank you. Thank you to the non-believers as well as the believers.

Never has my faith in God existing and how I am to serve him been stronger. I am a sinful man, I don't have all the answers, but I believe with all my heart.
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