Religious debate (split from main board)

#151
#151
What brings me to believe in God(aside from being raised going to church) is science. Believe it, The law of conservation of mass(also, the law of conservation of energy) states that in THE NATURAL WORLD, Matter(or energy) cannot be created or destroyed, only transferred. That tells me that something in the supernatural world(In my belief, God) created all and that is where everything comes from. Flame me if you would like, these are my beliefs. I'm out :peace2:
 
Last edited:
#152
#152
bluetickhound16 said:
There are several other bits of evidence that lead me to believe in an intelligent creator rather than random chance... like the fact that if the earth were any closer to (or further away from) the sun we wouldn't exist... If the earth were tilted on it's axis at any other angle than the one it's tilted at, life wouldn't exist. The order of nature itself point to an intelligent designer rather than chaotic happenstance.... It would be like saying an explosion at the junkyard resulted in a fully formed 747.....
Click to expand...


This could also explain why life developed randomly on earth rather than any other planet in our solar system. Earth just happened to be an environment that could develop life.

The order of nature comment is completely relevant and the best argument a person with faith can make to an atheist (like me), especially if the atheist knows anything about physics (and has an open mind). Next time, however, please leave off the explosion in a junkyard line. I was totally with you on that until the explosion in a junkyard comment. Admittedly, in your defense, the Big Bang theory does sound absurd, but mankinds knowledge of the universe is very limited, and it is just a theory.
 
#153
#153
BeecherVol said:
Whats the pupose of doing any good, for anyone, other than yourself?

If there is nothing after death, why worry about it?


There is a reason why some of mankind does good, and its not because of their nature. Like you said, Eden was lost.
Click to expand...

The purpose of doing good does not lie solely in faith or the belief in God. If there is nothing after death, then our works on Earth are the most important things and how we should be looked at by others. A good and moral person does goods deeds, and treats people with kindness and respect, simply because it is the right thing to do. I do not need God or Jesus to guide me to a good life.

There is definitely a reason why mankind does good works, and it lies in the individuals that do the good deeds (faith or no faith). I do not think that all of mankind posses the same nature, but an individual does. I do not believe in God, but consider myself a moral person because of how my parents raised me, and how I treat other people
 
#154
#154
Roll Tide Rev said:
When it's all said and done only one thing will matter. It will not be how good a person you are, what good things you did for others, or anything else. It will be if Jesus Christ was your Lord. I know I will get flamed to death but it is the truth.

The best part about it is this. You don't have to be a certain color, class, or creed, to receive it. Salvation is a free gift for everyone.
Click to expand...
Rev, based on my experience, as well as my reading of the Bible I'm just not sure about that. There are some passages of course which seem to indicate that salvation is avaliable to everyone. There are quite a few others which strongly suggest that it is a very exclsive club, and one in which man has no choice.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Romans 8:29-30)

Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why does He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will? Nay but. o man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, Why has thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? ( Romans 9:18-21)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. (Ephesians 1:3-5)

VolByBirth said:
Chosen for what? Saved from whom?
Click to expand...
See above. If God chose those who would be saved, then He also chose who would be damned. If the passages I quoted above are accurate, then it really isn't open to everyone, but only to the chosen few.
 
#155
#155
lylsmorr said:
What brings me to believe in God(aside from being raised going to church) is science. Believe it, The law of conservation of mass(also, the law of conservation of energy) states that in THE NATURAL WORLD, Matter(or energy) cannot be created or destroyed, only transferred. That tells me that something in the supernatural world(In my belief, God) created all and that is where everything comes from. Flame me if you would like, these are my beliefs. I'm out :peace2:
Click to expand...
I agree with everything you are saying. I believe in God. I just don't believe that I have any control over whether I will end up in heaven or hell.
 
#156
#156
MyBloodRunnethOrange said:
I agree with everything you are saying. I believe in God. I just don't believe that I have any control over whether I will end up in heaven or hell.
Click to expand...

Tough topic, but I personally believe Salvation is open to all willing to accept Jesus as their savior. Your opinion is all how you interpret what is written though, so I cannot argue with what you are saying.
 
#157
#157
lylsmorr said:
What brings me to believe in God(aside from being raised going to church) is science. Believe it, The law of conservation of mass(also, the law of conservation of energy) states that in THE NATURAL WORLD, Matter(or energy) cannot be created or destroyed, only transferred. That tells me that something in the supernatural world(In my belief, God) created all and that is where everything comes from. Flame me if you would like, these are my beliefs. I'm out :peace2:
Click to expand...

you're just using man's limited knowledge to justify a god. Just because we don't know doesn't mean it had to be created by a supernatural being.
 
#158
#158
1Ti 2:3 This is good and pleasing in the eyes of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Whose desire is that all men may have salvation and come to the knowledge of what is true.


Salvation is available to all men. Unfortunately, many will choose not to accept salvation and continue in their sins. God does not predestine anyone to hell, but He does know already what your choice will be.
 
#161
#161
bluetickhound16 said:
If you have a more plausible explanation as to how ORIGINAL life began, please enlighten us.... I just have a harder time believing that nobody created everything out of nothing than I do in the concept that there is a God who brought the universe (and everything in it) into existence. No... I don't propose to have answers of concrete proof of what I believe, but neither do you.
Evidence (like the photos that Hubble is sending back from the edges of the ever-expanding universe for instance) seem to bolster my beliefs more than anything else I've read or heard about.... There are several other bits of evidence that lead me to believe in an intelligent creator rather than random chance... like the fact that if the earth were any closer to (or further away from) the sun we wouldn't exist... If the earth were tilted on it's axis at any other angle than the one it's tilted at, life wouldn't exist. The order of nature itself point to an intelligent designer rather than chaotic happenstance.... It would be like saying an explosion at the junkyard resulted in a fully formed 747.....
Click to expand...

It doesn't seem to me that Christianity (or any religion, for that matter) solves the problem of something existing without being created. Christians have a hard time believing the universe can exist without a God to create it, but they have no problem whatsoever believing that God himself exists without a creator.
 
#162
#162
I haven't read through all 11 pages of this thread, but in the first several, belief is a key theme. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that none of us have any real control over what we believe. I don't think utvolpj could "chose" to believe in Christianity any more than Roll Tide Rev could chose not to. Our beliefs are simply the product of what we see, experience, etc. Take gravity for example. We all know that if something is dropped, it falls. You can try to convince yourself otherwise all day long, but you know what will happen because you've seen it so many times. The evidence is substantial. The same goes for religion, it seems to me. Some have experienced things that convince them it's true, others have not. It is what it is.
 
#163
#163
jamesd1628 said:
I haven't read through all 11 pages of this thread, but in the first several, belief is a key theme. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that none of us have any real control over what we believe. I don't think utvolpj could "chose" to believe in Christianity any more than Roll Tide Rev could chose not to. Our beliefs are simply the product of what we see, experience, etc. Take gravity for example. We all know that if something is dropped, it falls. You can try to convince yourself otherwise all day long, but you know what will happen because you've seen it so many times. The evidence is substantial. The same goes for religion, it seems to me. Some have experienced things that convince them it's true, others have not. It is what it is.
Click to expand...

I agree with most of your post up to "none of us have any real control over what we believe". As someone who was not raised in Church and didnot attend until my 20's. I didn't know anything about God or Jesus other than name only. No one drilled Him into my head as a youth. As I have stated in another post, I went to church to play basketball at their gym. Long story short I listened to what was being taught and made my own choice as to believe or not to believe.

This is the part that I agree with your post "Some have experienced things that convince them it's true". Count me in this group.
 
#164
#164
jamesd1628 said:
I haven't read through all 11 pages of this thread, but in the first several, belief is a key theme. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that none of us have any real control over what we believe. I don't think utvolpj could "chose" to believe in Christianity any more than Roll Tide Rev could chose not to. Our beliefs are simply the product of what we see, experience, etc. Take gravity for example. We all know that if something is dropped, it falls. You can try to convince yourself otherwise all day long, but you know what will happen because you've seen it so many times. The evidence is substantial. The same goes for religion, it seems to me. Some have experienced things that convince them it's true, others have not. It is what it is.
Click to expand...

This makes sense, but bad reasons for believing something only work when they are unrecognized. If the reasons are good, people generally have no choice but to accept the belief.

For instance, I believe wearing my seatbelt is a safe thing to do. I have very good reasons for believing this, and because those reasons are good I have no choice but to accept them. However, if somebody believes not wearing seatbelts are safe, the reasons they have for this are undoubtedly bad....but they work for that person because they don't recognize the reasons as bad.

To me, it is always about the reasons for a belief, not the belief itself.
 
#165
#165
Oldvol75 said:
I agree with most of your post up to "none of us have any real control over what we believe". As someone who was not raised in Church and didnot attend until my 20's. I didn't know anything about God or Jesus other than name only. No one drilled Him into my head as a youth. As I have stated in another post, I went to church to play basketball at their gym. Long story short I listened to what was being taught and made my own choice as to believe or not to believe.

This is the part that I agree with your post "Some have experienced things that convince them it's true". Count me in this group.
Click to expand...

Let me ask you this question: Could you now chose not to believe? You say that you chose to believe. I would suggest that, at the point you made this choice, you were no longer capable of not believing. I would have to assume that you find yourself in that position now. In which case, it seems that it's not really a choice at all.
 
#166
#166
jamesd1628 said:
Let me ask you this question: Could you now chose not to believe? You say that you chose to believe. I would suggest that, at the point you made this choice, you were no longer capable of not believing. I would have to assume that you find yourself in that position now. In which case, it seems that it's not really a choice at all.
Click to expand...

I have seen too much to not believe now. The choice was made in the beginning, when I first began going to church. Thats exactly what faith does, the more I experience, the more that I study, the more that I am around other believers, the more my faith strengthens. Faith is not something that just sits idol, the more I put into it the more that I get out of it. The years following made my faith deeper and deeper.

Just in the same way that a person who distances themselves from faith, that their beliefs or nonbeliefs grow stronger. But as I believe, we as humans are the ones that drift away from God, God Himself does not move. There is always hope, the first shall be last and the last shall be first.
 
#167
#167
Oldvol75 said:
I have seen too much to not believe now. The choice was made in the beginning, when I first began going to church. Thats exactly what faith does, the more I experience, the more that I study, the more that I am around other believers, the more my faith strengthens. Faith is not something that just sits idol, the more I put into it the more that I get out of it. The years following made my faith deeper and deeper.

Just in the same way that a person who distances themselves from faith, that their beliefs or nonbeliefs grow stronger. But as I believe, we as humans are the ones that drift away from God, God Himself does not move. There is always hope, the first shall be last and the last shall be first.
Click to expand...

A good question to ask is what would it take to get you to not believe...what would it take to get you to fundamentally reject the notion of God in general, and Christianity in particular?

If the answer is "nothing" or you don't readily know, then I don't think your belief is a "choice" anymore.

Same holds true for atheists, or anybody else.
 
#168
#168
rjd970 said:
A good question to ask is what would it take to get you to not believe...what would it take to get you to fundamentally reject the notion of God in general, and Christianity in particular?

If the answer is "nothing" or you don't readily know, then I don't think your belief is a "choice" anymore.

Same holds true for atheists, or anybody else.
Click to expand...

What would it take??? For me to die and there be nothing.
 
#169
#169
Oldvol75 said:
What would it take??? For me to die and there be nothing.
Click to expand...

Then your belief (as it stands now) really isn't a choice, right?

It's like taking a test and the only thing that would get you to change your answer to a question would be to see the answer key.
 
#170
#170
rjd970 said:
Then your belief (as it stands now) really isn't a choice, right?

It's like taking a test and the only thing that would get you to change your answer to a question would be to see the answer key.
Click to expand...

There is always a choice. You said at one time IIRC that you were a believer. Something happened to make you change your beliefs. You are the example that there is a choice.
 
#172
#172
jamesd1628 said:
That doesn't sound like a choice.
Click to expand...

He was a believer then he changed his mind to not believe? That by its definition would have to be choice. His choice was not to believe.

If it wasn't his choice to not believe, then what or who made that choice for him?
 
#173
#173
I believe the paint is dry. I touch it. Whoops. I change my mind. In an hour I'll believe the paint is dry.

It's always a choice.
 
#174
#174
vollygirl said:
I believe the paint is dry. I touch it. Whoops. I change my mind. In an hour I'll believe the paint is dry.

It's always a choice.
Click to expand...

Immediately after you've touched it, with your finger still wet with paint, can you at that moment choose to believe the paint is dry?
 
#175
#175
Oldvol75 said:
He was a believer then he changed his mind to not believe? That by its definition would have to be choice. His choice was not to believe.

If it wasn't his choice to not believe, then what or who made that choice for him?
Click to expand...

What you said in your previous post was: "Something happened to make you change your beliefs." That does not sound like a choice. That sounds like he was presented with some circumstance or fact that made him change his mind.
 
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.

VN Store



Back
Top