Richmond is taking down Confederate statues: Is this the end for other Confederate memorials?

[RDU VOL#14]

Comparing George Floyd to Confederate soldiers because you think his death received "too much attention" is a bad take. Go watch the Floyd video and you will see why people are speaking up about it. I suspect you won't feel the urge to react to it with "but he was a criminal in 2004"

I’ve watched the video and it’s horrible, it’s pretty impossible not to have seen it. That should never have happened. I’ve stated over and over again that Chauvin should be prosecuted to the highest letter of the law possible.

Maybe i could’ve chosen a different way to show that comparison and my point was that people see what they want to see in deciding how and why they choose who they honor. I made the comparison because In a small way I guess on paper that could be comparable. Meaning that they have criminal backgrounds and you could say both will have their stories told in American History and their impacts on Black America. On paper Robert E Lee is all we have, as opposed to George Floyd where we get to see his ultimate human side and his very last breath being taken. I suppose It was more of a social take than anything. Admittedly a somewhat far fetched one at that.

 

[NashVol11]

The biggest short coming is that we allowed a Neo-Confederates, Pro-Southerners and Lost Causers to change the entire narrative of why the civil war started, who were the real hero’s and why the south actually lost the war. Now you have a situation where historians, activists and the military are pushing back and All the “my grandfather fought For the Confederacy” people are all upset.

Could not agree more. The battle over narrative had a huge and lasting impact, and impacted a number of parties including and beyond Confederate soldiers. But this site may not be ready for stuff like this lol

 

[Weezer]

Difference is that many other countries acknowledge their shortcomings, whereas here it's "I DON'T CARE DON'T MESS WITH OUR NATIONAL SONG"

Also, no, not every country enslaved an entire race of people.

MANY countries engaged in the African slave trade. MOST of those countries do not really acknowledge it. And I'm not sure any of them carry the guilt that still pervades our country to this day, despite the fact that no one alive experienced that tragedy. That guilt happens here because it is accepted here. That's called freedom. For all of our shortcomings, people can express outrage over what was because they have the freedom to do so. That's not true in every country. At some point, this country needs to forgive itself. It's hard to truly find equality for all when some are made to feel guilty for a past they did not engage in.

This is often painted as a one-sided argument. There are multiple sides, and all sides have things they need to work on. Everyone has certain realizations they need to come to.

 

[CagleMtnVol]

The statue of Robert E. Lee has towered over Richmond for more than 100 years. In recent days, though, it's been conveying a different message - words like "Black lives matter" are covering its stone pedestal.

At least a hundred people gathered on a muggy Thursday afternoon near the monument to the Confederate commander after Gov. Ralph Northam announced it was to come down "as soon as possible."

Richmond isn't alone. Around the U.S, demonstrations over the death of Floyd and racial inequality have sparked both protesters and city officials to remove, deface or announce plans to take down many Confederate memorials.

While the decision in Richmond signals a positive step for those who want to see the monuments removed, experts warn that the push to take them down and address what sparked them to be erected still has a long way to go.

Among the locations where mayors, protesters and even groups dedicated to Confederate history have taken down statues or announced plans:

• In Montgomery, Alabama, on Monday, another statue of Lee was toppled in front of its namesake high school. Cheers went up among a small crowd gathered to watch the fallen general as cars circled the area and honked.
• In Birmingham, Alabama, Mayor Randall Woodfin ordered workers to take down a 50-foot-tall Confederate obelisk on Monday night after a group of protesters failed to knock it down. The night before, the group dismantled the brass cast of Charles Linn, a captain in the Confederate Navy, from its base.
• The city of Mobile, Alabama, removed a bronze figure of Admiral Raphael Semmes early Friday, without making any public announcement. Semmes was a Confederate commerce raider, sinking Union-allied ships during the Civil War, and the statue had become a flashpoint in the city.
• Indianapolis Mayor Joe Hogsett announced Thursday that a monument dedicated to Confederate soldiers who died at a Union prison camp in the city will be removed from a park.
• A statue outside the Tennessee State Capitol of Edward Carmack, a controversial former lawmaker and newspaper publisher who espoused racist views, was torn down Saturday.
• The United Daughters of the Confederacy removed a statue of a soldier gazing south in Alexandria, Virginia, on Tuesday.
• The Arkansas division of the United Daughters of the Confederacy also announced that a Confederate soldier monument in Bentonville will be removed from the downtown square and relocated to a private park.

Richmond is taking down Confederate statues: Is this the end for other Confederate memorials?

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This so sad and makes me angry!

I take pride in knowing I had 8 ancestors who fought for the Confederacy (two of which I have pictures of) and one who fought on both sides. Not a one of them owned slaves they eeked out an existence in cabins or small two or three room houses in SE Middle Tennessee and in the mountains of the Cumberland plateau.

To me it wasn't that long ago in my family tree my grandmother who passed away 6 years ago both her grandfather's were Confederate soldiers.

I also take pride in knowing that I also had ancestors fight for our Independence in the Revolution.

I had two great-grandfathers that were drafted into WW1 (but didn't go overseas that I can find) one grandpa served in France & across Europe in WW2 while another was honorably discharged from the Navy shortly after being stationed in San Diego after he became deathly sick (they believe he was allergic to something aboard ship) and my father was stationed in Germany during Vietnam.

It's all a part of history and who we are as a country. You can't wash it away and pretend it didn't exist.

 

[Weezer]

Not your son or boy.

That you would use that term is pretty telling.

You literally have a second grade at best understanding of American History.



Well crawl back intop your basement. You obviously do not have anything intelligent to add to the conversation



Commtting genocide should not be celebrated.

Individuals can make mistakes and redeem themselves.



No, They were put up in the 1900s. Some vets were alive. But they were the equivalent to WWII vets of today. Not many left and all old. They weren't putting up monuments to their azz kicking.

Sorry you don';t know history. These are commonly known facts.



The confederacy was not American or America. It was an attempt by racist traitors to steal land from the U.S. and create a new non-US nation based on white supremacy. All traitors.



First nations people can not be traitors. They were protecting their rights against invaders.

Genocide is an argument than can be made for the treatment of Native Americans. Not for the treatment of African slaves.

 

[Weezer]

The biggest short coming is that we allowed a Neo-Confederates, Pro-Southerners and Lost Causers to change the entire narrative of why the civil war started, who were the real hero’s and why the south actually lost the war. Now you have a situation where historians, activists and the military are pushing back and All the “my grandfather fought For the Confederacy” people are all upset.

Most of what we're taught about history is inaccurate, and romanticized. That's true of ALL history, not just Civil War/Southern history.

 

[NashVol11]

I’ve watched the video and it’s horrible, it’s pretty impossible not to have seen it. That should never have happened. I’ve stated over and over again that Chauvin should be prosecuted to the highest letter of the law possible.

Maybe i could’ve chosen a different way to show that comparison and my point was that people see what they want to see in deciding how and why they choose who they honor. I made the comparison because In a small way I guess on paper that could be comparable. Meaning that they have criminal backgrounds and you could say both will have their stories told in American History and their impacts on Black America. On paper Robert E Lee is all we have, as opposed to George Floyd where we get to see his ultimate human side and his very last breath being taken. I suppose It was more of a social take than anything. Admittedly a somewhat far fetched one at that.

To be fair, I understand the point you were trying to make and think plenty here will agree with it.

I guess to me, it is natural that not all crimes are perceived equally (and that not all deaths receive the same amount of attention, as I mentioned in another post). To the extent that those are proof of "selective outrage", that selective outrage has existed forever. People care more when someone is lynched than when someone's grandma dies in Oklahoma, and they care more when someone's crime is risking their life to uphold slavery than when it's pointing a gun at someone being brought up right after he's killed. I don't think that is nefarious

 

[VolStrom]

Genocide is an argument than can be made for the treatment of Native Americans. Not for the treatment of African slaves.

He's black, you must bow down and kiss his feet because George Floyd was killed by the police and all blacks are now brilliant and have suffered.

 

[Pepe_Silvia]

Not your son or boy.

That you would use that term is pretty telling.

You literally have a second grade at best understanding of American History.



Well crawl back intop your basement. You obviously do not have anything intelligent to add to the conversation



Commtting genocide should not be celebrated.

Individuals can make mistakes and redeem themselves.



No, They were put up in the 1900s. Some vets were alive. But they were the equivalent to WWII vets of today. Not many left and all old. They weren't putting up monuments to their azz kicking.

Sorry you don';t know history. These are commonly known facts.



The confederacy was not American or America. It was an attempt by racist traitors to steal land from the U.S. and create a new non-US nation based on white supremacy. All traitors.



First nations people can not be traitors. They were protecting their rights against invaders.

Lol at me not knowing history when you claimed that no CW veterans were alive when these monuments were erected. The Lee monument in richmond was erected in 1890, so there would have been plenty of veterans in their 40s at the time. I dont care that these monuments are being removed but (unlike you) I do value historical accuracy.

 

[NashVol11]

MANY countries engaged in the African slave trade. MOST of those countries do not really acknowledge it. And I'm not sure any of them carry the guilt that still pervades our country to this day, despite the fact that no one alive experienced that tragedy. That guilt happens here because it is accepted here. That's called freedom. For all of our shortcomings, people can express outrage over what was because they have the freedom to do so. That's not true in every country. At some point, this country needs to forgive itself. It's hard to truly find equality for all when some are made to feel guilty for a past they did not engage in.

This is often painted as a one-sided argument. There are multiple sides, and all sides have things they need to work on. Everyone has certain realizations they need to come to.

One of Bryan Stevenson's points is that said forgiveness first requires a level of acknowledgment, similar to Germany with its own troubled history. I think it's a good point

 

[Weezer]

Comparing George Floyd to Confederate soldiers because you think his death received "too much attention" is a bad take. Go watch the Floyd video and you will see why people are speaking up about it. I suspect you won't feel the urge to react to it with "but he was a criminal in 2004"

There's a difference between pointing out he was mistreated and needlessly killed, and painting him as innocent, or some kind of hero. He didn't deserve his fate. Chauvin and the other officers should be punished. But painting him as a hero is no different than what you're accusing some of doing with the Confederacy.

And I'm not saying you particularly are painting him as a hero, but some are. People need to be able to separate that what happened to him was wrong from it somehow making him heroic.

 

[Weezer]

One of Bryan Stevenson's points is that said forgiveness first requires a level of acknowledgment, similar to Germany with its own troubled history. I think it's a good point

Has Germany really acknowledged their history? Until the late '80's, Germany wasn't even a united country. And even now, talking about Nazi Germany is a bit of a taboo subject in Germany.

 

[RDU VOL#14]

To be fair, I understand the point you were trying to make and think plenty here will agree with it.

I guess to me, it is natural that not all crimes are perceived equally (and that not all deaths receive the same amount of attention, as I mentioned in another post). To the extent that those are proof of "selective outrage", that selective outrage has existed forever. People care more when someone is lynched than when someone's grandma dies in Oklahoma, and they care more when someone's crime is risking their life to uphold slavery than when it's pointing a gun at someone being brought up right after he's killed. I don't think that is nefarious

I see what you’re saying as well.

 

[Dumbledorange]

Daughters of the Confederacy put up these and KKK statues in their “Lost Cause” push in the first half of the 20th century. There is absolutely nothing “historical” about these.

If anything, their propagandist nature makes them counterproductive for those looking for accurate historical depictions

Yep.

 

[happy-go_vol]

Not your son or boy.

That you would use that term is pretty telling.

You literally have a second grade at best understanding of American History.



Well crawl back intop your basement. You obviously do not have anything intelligent to add to the conversation



Commtting genocide should not be celebrated.

Individuals can make mistakes and redeem themselves.



No, They were put up in the 1900s. Some vets were alive. But they were the equivalent to WWII vets of today. Not many left and all old. They weren't putting up monuments to their azz kicking.

Sorry you don';t know history. These are commonly known facts.



The confederacy was not American or America. It was an attempt by racist traitors to steal land from the U.S. and create a new non-US nation based on white supremacy. All traitors.



First nations people can not be traitors. They were protecting their rights against invaders.

Pure ignorance from a pure marxist. My cat has more logic than you.

 

[MontyPython]

I had to think through this situation alot to arrive at an opinion which is in the form of an analogy...

Nazi Germany believed Jews were inferior people. They enslaved them and killed them without recourse. Thankfully, Germany lost the war. What if after the war ended, Germans erected monuments in honor of their wartime leaders (Hitler, etc.)? How would you feel about those statues if they were still standing today in your German hometown and you were Jewish?

The Confederacy believed Blacks were inferior people. They enslaved them and killed them without recourse. Thankfully, the Confederacy lost the war. What if after the war ended, (Confederate) Americans erected monuments in honor of their wartime leaders (Lee, etc.)? How would you feel about those statues if they were still standing today in your American hometown and you were black?

There is no difference.

There is no moral equivalency to claim these statues of rebel leaders are justifiable.

Slavery is a stain on this country to this day, and those who led the fight to *retain* slavery should never have had monuments built in their honor in the first place.

Raze them all.

And BTW... you will find exactly zero public monuments of Hitler in Germany.

 

[utvolpj]

I had to think through this situation alot to arrive at an opinion which is in the form of an analogy...

Nazi Germany believed Jews were inferior people. They enslaved them and killed them without recourse. Thankfully, Germany lost the war. What if after the war ended, Germans erected monuments in honor of their wartime leaders (Hitler, etc.)? How would you feel about those statues if they were still standing today in your German hometown and you were Jewish?

The Confederacy believed Blacks were inferior people. They enslaved them and killed them without recourse. Thankfully, the Confederacy lost the war. What if after the war ended, (Confederate) Americans erected monuments in honor of their wartime leaders (Lee, etc.)? How would you feel about those statues if they were still standing today in your American hometown and you were black?

There is no difference.

There is no moral equivalency to claim these statues of rebel leaders are justifiable.

Slavery is a stain on this country to this day, and those who led the fight to *retain* slavery should never have had monuments built in their honor in the first place.

Raze them all.

And BTW... you will find exactly zero public monuments of Hitler in Germany.

They have also eliminated free speech wrt their nazi history. Is that worth sacrificing?

 

[MontyPython]

Has Germany really acknowledged their history? Until the late '80's, Germany wasn't even a united country. And even now, talking about Nazi Germany is a bit of a taboo subject in Germany.

Germany has strict laws banning Nazi symbols and what’s called Volksverhetzung — incitement of the people, or hate speech. Like more than a dozen European countries, Germany also has a law criminalizing Holocaust denial.

 

[carlos86]

Could not agree more. The battle over narrative had a huge and lasting impact, and impacted a number of parties including and beyond Confederate soldiers. But this site may not be ready for stuff like this lol

The Union won the war but the Confederates won the peace. Now people are trying to reverse that. Recently it started with telling Americans who the real U.S. Grant was and not the one that has been portrayed by Lost Causers for the last hundred or so years.

 

[k-town_king]

They openly declared their intent to join their countries to destroy the US whom they made treaties with. Lol. Try again

You cannot betray your oppressors and invaders. Sorry

Lol at me not knowing history when you claimed that no CW veterans were alive when these monuments were erected. The Lee monument in richmond was erected in 1890, so there would have been plenty of veterans in their 40s at the time. I dont care that these monuments are being removed but (unlike you) I do value historical accuracy.

So there were a couple guys around. I said that.

When the bulk were built in the 1900s they were not around. Stop being dumb.

Pure ignorance from a pure marxist. My cat has more logic than you.

You don't know what a Marxist is. We have covered this.

I will help you out. Here ya go.
Dictionary.com Is The World’s Favorite Online Dictionary

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

Comparing George Floyd to Confederate soldiers because you think his death received "too much attention" is a bad take. Go watch the Floyd video and you will see why people are speaking up about it. I suspect you won't feel the urge to react to it with "but he was a criminal in 2004"

You call what’s been going on concerning Floyd’s death speaking up about it??? The black community should be absolutely ashamed at how it has reacted to this horrible tragedy.

 

[k-town_king]

The Union won the war but the Confederates won the peace. Now people are trying to reverse that. Recently it started with telling Americans who the real U.S. Grant was and not the one that has been portrayed by Lost Causers for the last hundred or so years.

What does that mean? Their sympathizers conspired to keep black people oppressed?

If so then you are right.

 

[MontyPython]

They have also eliminated free speech wrt their nazi history. Is that worth sacrificing?

America has eliminated your free speech in a movie theater (it's a crime to yell "fire"). Also, for example, it's illegal to threaten the President. These constraints on your free speech liberties exist because they make common sense.

 

[k-town_king]

You call what’s been going on concerning Floyd’s death speaking up about it??? The black community should be absolutely ashamed at how it has reacted to this horrible tragedy.

Why should the black community be ashamed?

If its about the protest its not the black community protesting. It is America. All colors are upset. This little conservative circle jerk here is atypical of the average American.

 

[utvolpj]

America has eliminated your free speech in a movie theater (it's a crime to yell "fire"). Also, for example, it's illegal to threaten the President. These constraints on your free speech liberties exist because they make common sense.

Yet I'm still able to discuss the ridiculous comparison to yelling fire and I can speak of support for or opposition to the potus without fear of my govt. Being unable to make terroristic threats is not the same as completely eliminating free discussion