Russia brings the fight to ISIS in Syria!!!

#776
#776
volprof said:
At some point, though, more will have to be done than just bribing Arab governments to keep the peace and suppress the tensions seething underneath. Chechnya is another case in point. Fundamental reforms and overhauls in the substructures of those states must eventually occur.

As a superpower, you will inevitably have some people that will resent you and your involvement anywhere, but particularly in this part of the world. The less forceful intervention from us, and the more economic aid provided and manufacturing initiatives created there that can allow for a more equitable distribution of wealth (along with reform in Arab states' oil industries) the better.
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You are assuming that the US goverment acts from a position of goodwill, well, let me tell you, that has not been the case for a long, long time.

And the Russians might be just that bad, we just don't know, we can only evaluate their overt actions.
 
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#777
#777
johndoevol said:
You are assuming that the US goverment acts from a position of goodwill, well, let me tell you, that has not been the case for a long, long time.

And the Russians might be just that bad, we just don't know, we can only evaluate their overt actions.
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The only thing I am assuming is pragmatic realism. I have never said that the US acts out of goodwill and certainly not in Syria. Such a position would be ridiculous.

All state actions are selfish in nature, even humanitarian ones.
 
#780
#780
AirVol said:
I'm enjoying watching the news watching the Russians and France bomb the hell out of ISIS targets. Why wouldn't Obama do this? Did these targets just surface or was it that our spineless leader is just a chicken shat?
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France Strikes ISIS Targets in Syria in Retaliation for Attacks

The United States provided French officials with information to help them strike Islamic State targets in Syria, known as “strike packages,” American officials said.
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The US basically gave the French targets that they had been sitting on. More proof that the US has been bombing sand while avoiding real ISIS targets.

And you ask if Obama was to chicken to bomb these targets, I say that it is more sinister than that. They intended for ISIS to take over Syria all along and remove Assad, then the US could come in afterwards and "negotiate peace" with ISIS.
 
#781
#781
"The US basically gave the French targets that they had been sitting on. More proof that the US has been bombing sand while avoiding real ISIS targets."

A big fat "F" in Philosophy 101 for you.
 
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#783
#783
I was planning on having some roasted turkey for thanksgiving. Hopefully Russia can add a little fried Turkey to the holidays as well.
 
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#785
#785
volprof said:
My, oh my. So you are a little devil after all, even after that damn speech last week about how much more caring than the rest of us you are regarding foreign policy.

Seems, sir, that you have a problem with double standards. Russia does something, it can't possibly be wrong. America does something, everything turns to ****, in your opinion.

At least the rest of us are consistent. But I will give you credit for the consistency of your inconsistency.
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Consistency = stubbornness (in this case). At least he is starting to see the light.
 
#787
#787
Rasputin_Vol said:
France Strikes ISIS Targets in Syria in Retaliation for Attacks



The US basically gave the French targets that they had been sitting on. More proof that the US has been bombing sand while avoiding real ISIS targets.

And you ask if Obama was to chicken to bomb these targets, I say that it is more sinister than that. They intended for ISIS to take over Syria all along and remove Assad, then the US could come in afterwards and "negotiate peace" with ISIS.
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You just refuse to read anything that doesn't suit your story. We have had guys giving us first hand reasons for this "lack of bombing".

Could it be that we haven't flown much in Syria since Russia stepped in? You know avoiding another fricking war.
 
#789
#789
LouderVol said:
You just refuse to read anything that doesn't suit your story. We have had guys giving us first hand reasons for this "lack of bombing".

Could it be that we haven't flown much in Syria since Russia stepped in? You know avoiding another fricking war.
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The exact same could be said of you...

We've used very limited means in our fight vs ISIS, way before the Russians got involved, and this isn't even debatable. We "bombed" sand for a year prior to the Russians coming in and ISIS got stronger. Exlain that...
 
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#790
#790
Pacer92 said:
The exact same could be said of you...

We've used very limited means in our fight vs ISIS, way before the Russians got involved, and this isn't even debatable. We "bombed" sand for a year prior to the Russians coming in and ISIS got stronger. Exlain that...
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They will lie like they always do.
 
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#791
#791
Pacer92 said:
The exact same could be said of you...

We've used very limited means in our fight vs ISIS, way before the Russians got involved, and this isn't even debatable. We "bombed" sand for a year prior to the Russians coming in and ISIS got stronger. Exlain that...
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Explain it?

Who told you that ISIS got stronger during America's bombing campaign? Pravda? Its movements became largely contained (Obama's comment was largely correct, just ill-timed and improperly worded), and it had been pushed out of several strategic locations.

And, no, a terrorist attack in Paris does not mean that ISIS is "stronger." It just means that ISIS is still capable of launching a terrorist act in Europe.
 
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#792
#792
Pacer92 said:
Why is USA so much obsessed with Russia? - PravdaReport
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I'll have to be honest, I was nearly half-way through that piece before I realized it wasn't actually a joke. I thought maybe somebody in Russia had a sense of humor, like The Onion here.

It's made even more hilarious, despite its apparent unintentional parody of itself and Russian media, by the fact that Russians have the biggest American penis envy of any country on Earth. This is just one more example of the severe inferiority complex many in their society suffer.
 
#793
#793
The whole thing just seems fishy. Supposedly we have flown thousands of sorties against ISIS. Thousands. That's a large number. Against a force numbering 30-40,000. We know they are selling oil on the black market. We know they are fighting the Kurds, and we communicate with the Kurds. We know they are fighting Assad, and probably the anti-Assad rebels (who we also communicate with) when they get a chance. We know the city they operate from. And yet they persist. How is it possible we've run all these sorties and they're still plugging along? How is there any oil infrastructure left? How is there any command and control left? How do they even have more than a handful of humvees or a couple mortars? They roll into captured areas in these long convoys, how is no one lighting that up? It just seems odd that we've dropped all this ordnance and there doesn't appear to be much to show for it. And since we're not killing them in Syria they're returning to the EU to carry the fight to the "crusaders".
 
#794
#794
DancingOutlaw said:
The whole thing just seems fishy. Supposedly we have flown thousands of sorties against ISIS. Thousands. That's a large number. Against a force numbering 30-40,000. We know they are selling oil on the black market. We know they are fighting the Kurds, and we communicate with the Kurds. We know they are fighting Assad, and probably the anti-Assad rebels (who we also communicate with) when they get a chance. We know the city they operate from. And yet they persist. How is it possible we've run all these sorties and they're still plugging along? How is there any oil infrastructure left? How is there any command and control left? How do they even have more than a handful of humvees or a couple mortars? They roll into captured areas in these long convoys, how is no one lighting that up? It just seems odd that we've dropped all this ordnance and there doesn't appear to be much to show for it. And since we're not killing them in Syria they're returning to the EU to carry the fight to the "crusaders".
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Listening to Russian media and the Russian Ministry of Defense over the past month or two, you'd think that ISIS has been blown straight to hell and that there shouldn't be more than 1 or 2 of them left, cowering behind their goats. And yet they persist.

Point is: air campaigns are a complex (and largely ineffective) thing, if not supported by sufficient ground forces. The Syrian Arab Army is not a sufficient ground force.

Speaking of the Russian air campaign in Syria:

Syrians Are Paying A High Price For Russia’s Cheap Bombs

Rogoway makes a good point that such careless psychological tactics on the cheap (which are hard for any intelligent, unbiased military observer to deny) will make a potential Russian-US coalition in Syria all the more difficult to form. Not that it will anyhow.
 
#795
#795
DancingOutlaw said:
The whole thing just seems fishy. Supposedly we have flown thousands of sorties against ISIS. Thousands. That's a large number. Against a force numbering 30-40,000. We know they are selling oil on the black market. We know they are fighting the Kurds, and we communicate with the Kurds. We know they are fighting Assad, and probably the anti-Assad rebels (who we also communicate with) when they get a chance. We know the city they operate from. And yet they persist. How is it possible we've run all these sorties and they're still plugging along? How is there any oil infrastructure left? How is there any command and control left? How do they even have more than a handful of humvees or a couple mortars? They roll into captured areas in these long convoys, how is no one lighting that up? It just seems odd that we've dropped all this ordnance and there doesn't appear to be much to show for it. And since we're not killing them in Syria they're returning to the EU to carry the fight to the "crusaders".
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We can allegedly identify Russian artillery crossing into Ukraine, yet we can't seem to spot a kilometers long caravan of oil tankers crossing into Turkey?
 
#796
#796
volprof said:
Listening to Russian media and the Russian Ministry of Defense over the past month or two, you'd think that ISIS has been blown straight to hell and that there shouldn't be more than 1 or 2 of them left, cowering behind their goats. And yet they persist.

Point is: air campaigns are a complex (and largely ineffective) thing, if not supported by sufficient ground forces. The Syrian Arab Army is not a sufficient ground force.

Speaking of the Russian air campaign in Syria:

Syrians Are Paying A High Price For Russia’s Cheap Bombs

Rogoway makes a good point that such careless psychological tactics on the cheap (which are hard for any intelligent, unbiased military observer to deny) will make a potential Russian-US coalition in Syria all the more difficult to form. Not that it will anyhow.
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So what is the point of this exercise? Why are we conducting CAS and strategic sorties if they are complex and ineffectual? How is it we can tell how many square feet China adds to its island outposts every day but we can't pick up on troop and vehicle movements in a freaking desert?
 
#797
#797
DancingOutlaw said:
So what is the point of this exercise? Why are we conducting CAS and strategic sorties if they are complex and ineffectual? How is it we can tell how many square feet China adds to its island outposts every day but we can't pick up on troop and vehicle movements in a freaking desert?
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We're there for many of the same reasons the Russians are there: make it look like you're doing something significant when you really aren't. It's all about creating narratives, the ones you want to be believed.
 
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#798
#798
Pacer92 said:
We've used very limited means in our fight vs ISIS, way before the Russians got involved, and this isn't even debatable. We "bombed" sand for a year prior to the Russians coming in and ISIS got stronger. Exlain that...
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It very well could be the vast underestimation of ISIS as a force as we've seen in the news.

I mean, we are talking about an Administration that has downplayed ISIS at every step of the way. Even going as far as claiming they were "contained" just hours before the Paris attacks.

But I also don't trust the Russians to tell the whole truth either.
 
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