Serious QB discussion

[Jxn Vol]

My man, I'm waiting on "the boss" to tell me it's time to get my old butt up and get ready to hit the gym for what halfway passes as physical therapy, but Medicare likes it better if they don't get billed except for the gym membership.

If it were serious, I'd drive to West TN and meet you at the Waffle House, as is the custom here.

You do seem to have, as we used to say, "a hard on," for Joe to be replaced. We're winning, enjoy the ride as long as it lasts.

Like I said, don’t take it so serious. Btw both WH are not in great locations. For future reference.

Good luck with the hip.

 

[Jxn Vol]

So keep status quo and get one offensive TD per game. That's what you want ? You realize without special team scoring we loose that game at home right ? Why are TN fans so opposed to change when something is not working ? Seniors are not always the best players on the team.

He may shake his cane at you for saying this. Just warning you.

 

[JHuntVols]

Pretty basic route in the Keyton drop Saturday.

Nico in limited action 2/5 for 11 yards, long of 6 yards. Playing against bad teams in mop up duty.

Sure. I'll recommend not playing the stats game for Milton defenders. He's got the career statistics of a Jarrett Guarantano. I'd love to see how many of Milton's yards come from screens if anyone has that data to share. Just for fun I'll summarize Milton's incredible pass attempts from last game.

1. Miss - Overthrow on an out route
2. Complete - Ball was placed noticeably behind the receiver
3. Complete - Screen ... who cares
4. Miss - Hard to say given the missed PI call here... lets call it a wash
5. Complete - Accurate throw to a receiver sitting in the flat
6. Complete - Accurate throw on an in route to the middle of the field
7. Miss - Pressured leading to an inaccurate
8. Miss - Overthrow to a receiver in the top left corner of the end zone
9. Miss - Technically a miss as he let go of it at the last possible second ... this was a poor decision by Milton given the room he had to run.
10. Miss - This ball could have been placed out in front for a higher percentage catch by Keyton, but I'll agree he should have caught this regardless.
11. Complete - Ball thrown to a TE in the flat on the rollout.
12. Miss - I have no clue. It was so off from the nearest receiver that you'd hope that there was a miscommunication or misunderstanding of the call by the receiver or QB.
13. Miss - I remember seeing this live and wondering where the hell Milton threw this ball... Keyton had separation on the sideline, but I didn't see the ball in the frame at all. The replay showed it was about 5 - 7 yards in front... another PI call so hard to say again.
14. Complete - Screen... who cares
15. Complete - Receiver had to come back quite a few yards to complete the curl here.
16. Miss - Ball thrown behind the receiver on another slant route.
17. Complete - Squirrel had to make a great catch on the sideline, but this was probably Milton's best throw of the day.
18. Miss - I disagree with Gary Danielson... he called it inaccurate, but I think this was a catchable ball. Squirrel had to slow up for it to be sure, but it was a workable throw given the pressure that Milton was under at that time.
19. Miss - Overthrow on what looked to be a corner route but can't tell from the TV angle.
20. Complete - Poor ball placement on this out route. Castles had to slow down to reach behind him to secure this one.
21. Miss - Underthrow ... if he placed it ahead of the receiver, then the DB wouldn't have had the opportunity to attack the receivers arm to prevent the catch. This was a missed PI call IMO though.
22. Complete - Thorton did not expect this one... it was right on his chest in the slant, but luckily Castle managed to secure the deflection. Good throw by Milton.
23. Interception - I seriously don't know what Milton was thinking here. This was an obvious cover 3, and he didn't see the middle safety before launching it to Thorton. Even if the safety wasn't there, it seemed to me the trajectory of the ball would give the OTHER safety an easy play on it.
24. Complete - Screen... who cares
25. Miss - Hard to be sure from the TV angle but looked like a well enough placed ball, but it was great coverage by the DB.

TLDR;
Incomplete - 5 of the 13 misses being a result of inaccuracy, 2 of them were due to PI called or not called, 3 of them were catchable, 2 of them were poor decisions or miscommunication, and 1 was a result of pressure.
Interception - Lack of field awareness
Complete - 3 of the 11 that counted were screens, 3 were caught despite poor ball placement, 3 of them were accurate throws to either a flat or the only in route thrown to that game, and the last 2 (Squirrel sideline catch and Thorton slant off his chest) were perfectly placed throws.

Overall, Milton played a poor game despite the coaches obviously calling plays with relatively simple concepts to help him complete some easy passes that should be expected as gimmes of any starting QB in the SEC. There were certainly a few times where the receivers could have helped their QB out a bit more, but he had too many inaccurate throws and too many poor decisions to put the blame on anyone else.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

So keep status quo and get one offensive TD per game. That's what you want ? You realize without special team scoring we loose that game at home right ? Why are TN fans so opposed to change when something is not working ? Seniors are not always the best players on the team.

I'm letting a highly paid, long-term, successful coach make those decisions, which are working and we're winning.

I'm just not looking to second guess a guy with a much better view of the team than me, much more experience with QBs than me, and $9M / year riding on his success with that team.

I question some of his play calls and strategies, but we are getting the wins. I'm really confused why in previous games we'd come out with our old tempo on our first series and an a seemingly "scripted" first series or two, but we didn't against aTm. It had done pretty well for us but it didn't happen against aTm and I thought it might get Neyland REALLY fired up if we got a quick score.

When it comes to the QBs, it's no contest. Heupel was a QB, has coached QBs his entire career, and has won with QBs of different types. It's his career and specialty: offense and QBs.

If he's wrong, we're screwed for more than just this season.

 

[Tnphil]

I think it's 4 games and Heupel said earlier they wouldn't redshirt him. I think Heupel expected we'd get to see him more, however.

I've said before, if Nico thought he was being passed over, not played, getting slighted by Coach Heupel and TN, he'd be a VERY hot commodity in the transfer portal. I'm sure he knows that.

There's zero indication, not a rumor, nothing that anyone on the team sees Joe Milton starting as an error by Coach Heupel. Nico appears fine with it and the portal is right there if he wants it.

Correct...it is 4 games

 

[Majors]

Sure. I'll recommend not playing the stats game for Milton defenders. He's got the career statistics of a Jarrett Guarantano. I'd love to see how many of Milton's yards come from screens if anyone has that data to share. Just for fun I'll summarize Milton's incredible pass attempts from last game.

1. Miss - Overthrow on an out route
2. Complete - Ball was placed noticeably behind the receiver
3. Complete - Screen ... who cares
4. Miss - Hard to say given the missed PI call here... lets call it a wash
5. Complete - Accurate throw to a receiver sitting in the flat
6. Complete - Accurate throw on an in route to the middle of the field
7. Miss - Pressured leading to an inaccurate
8. Miss - Overthrow to a receiver in the top left corner of the end zone
9. Miss - Technically a miss as he let go of it at the last possible second ... this was a poor decision by Milton given the room he had to run.
10. Miss - This ball could have been placed out in front for a higher percentage catch by Keyton, but I'll agree he should have caught this regardless.
11. Complete - Ball thrown to a TE in the flat on the rollout.
12. Miss - I have no clue. It was so off from the nearest receiver that you'd hope that there was a miscommunication or misunderstanding of the call by the receiver or QB.
13. Miss - I remember seeing this live and wondering where the hell Milton threw this ball... Keyton had separation on the sideline, but I didn't see the ball in the frame at all. The replay showed it was about 5 - 7 yards in front... another PI call so hard to say again.
14. Complete - Screen... who cares
15. Complete - Receiver had to come back quite a few yards to complete the curl here.
16. Miss - Ball thrown behind the receiver on another slant route.
17. Complete - Squirrel had to make a great catch on the sideline, but this was probably Milton's best throw of the day.
18. Miss - I disagree with Gary Danielson... he called it inaccurate, but I think this was a catchable ball. Squirrel had to slow up for it to be sure, but it was a workable throw given the pressure that Milton was under at that time.
19. Miss - Overthrow on what looked to be a corner route but can't tell from the TV angle.
20. Complete - Poor ball placement on this out route. Castles had to slow down to reach behind him to secure this one.
21. Miss - Underthrow ... if he placed it ahead of the receiver, then the DB wouldn't have had the opportunity to attack the receivers arm to prevent the catch. This was a missed PI call IMO though.
22. Complete - Thorton did not expect this one... it was right on his chest in the slant, but luckily Castle managed to secure the deflection. Good throw by Milton.
23. Interception - I seriously don't know what Milton was thinking here. This was an obvious cover 3, and he didn't see the middle safety before launching it to Thorton. Even if the safety wasn't there, it seemed to me the trajectory of the ball would give the OTHER safety an easy play on it.
24. Complete - Screen... who cares
25. Miss - Hard to be sure from the TV angle but looked like a well enough placed ball, but it was great coverage by the DB.

TLDR;
Incomplete - 5 of the 13 misses being a result of inaccuracy, 2 of them were due to PI called or not called, 3 of them were catchable, 2 of them were poor decisions or miscommunication, and 1 was a result of pressure.
Interception - Lack of field awareness
Complete - 3 of the 11 that counted were screens, 3 were caught despite poor ball placement, 3 of them were accurate throws to either a flat or the only in route thrown to that game, and the last 2 (Squirrel sideline catch and Thorton slant off his chest) were perfectly placed throws.

Overall, Milton played a poor game despite the coaches obviously calling plays with relatively simple concepts to help him complete some easy passes that should be expected as gimmes of any starting QB in the SEC. There were certainly a few times where the receivers could have helped their QB out a bit more, but he had too many inaccurate throws and too many poor decisions to put the blame on anyone else.

Passed the ball 22 times, ran 49 times. Won the game. Texas AM passed the ball 34 times and lost. Who would you rather be today? Int was a bad throw, took more points off the board no doubt.

Yet to see Milton fumble on a QB sneak that gets ran back for 6 or back to back pick 6’s like he had against KY.

 

[JHuntVols]

Passed the ball 22 times, ran 49 times. Won the game. Texas AM passed the ball 34 times and lost. Who would you rather be today? Int was a bad throw, took more points off the board no doubt.

Yet to see Milton fumble on a QB sneak that gets ran back for 6 or back to back pick 6’s like he had against KY.

Pointing out we won isn't the argument; it's irrelevant to the point of the discussion. Why? The discussion is if Milton is good, which is to say he contributes to winning the game, or that he's bad, which is to say that he unnecessarily limits or actively has a negative impact on the team's success. The evidence suggests that he's not only bad, but it suggests he's within spitting distance of JG bad. The fact is that it's a credit to Heupel, the run game, and the defense that they've managed to carry Milton to wins to this point. I simply prefer live games to ensure we are putting the best players out on the field before taking an unnecessary loss because of bad play at the most important position in sports. To preemptively answer a question, I'm willing to take the risk of an "unproven" player taking the reins simply because the level of play he has to perform to is so low as to expect anything different is not only an insult to him but a total dismissal of the usefulness of recruiting players.

 

[Majors]

Pointing out we won isn't the argument; it's irrelevant to the point of the discussion. Why? The discussion is if Milton is good, which is to say he contributes to winning the game, or that he's bad, which is to say that he unnecessarily limits or actively has a negative impact on the team's success. The evidence suggests that he's not only bad, but it suggests he's within spitting distance of JG bad. The fact is that it's a credit to Heupel, the run game, and the defense that they've managed to carry Milton to wins to this point. I simply prefer live games to ensure we are putting the best players out on the field before taking an unnecessary loss because of bad play at the most important position in sports. To preemptively answer a question, I'm willing to take the risk of an "unproven" player taking the reins simply because the level of play he has to perform to is so low as to expect anything different is not only an insult to him but a total dismissal of the usefulness of recruiting players.

It’s absolutely is part of the argument/discussion because life is better when you win. Joe Milton hasn’t lost to Georgia State at home, to keep making the comparison to JG is comical as that guy helped get two coaches fired.

 

[JHuntVols]

It’s absolutely is part of the argument/discussion because life is better when you win. Joe Milton hasn’t lost to Georgia State at home, to keep making the comparison to JG is comical as that guy helped get two coaches fired.

Ya bud... you can't understand something as basic as correlation vs. causation in the context of football. I'm guessing you think Tim Tebow was a good NFL quarterback too?

 

[Majors]

Ya bud... you can't understand something as basic as correlation vs. causation in the context of football. I'm guessing you think Tim Tebow was a good NFL quarterback too?

Probably because you keep saying he’s on the level as JG in the “context” of football. Nice sidebar with the deflection with Tebow. Probably means you’re tapped out. Sorry we won.

 

[JHuntVols]

Probably because you keep saying he’s on the level as JG in the “context” of football. Nice sidebar with the deflection with Tebow. Probably means you’re tapped out. Sorry we won.

We're comparing individuals, so I'd love to see you demonstrate that Milton is noticeably better than JG. Let's see you try to do that WITHOUT reference to their team's record. I made the case that he's somewhere in between JG and Hooker's first year at Virgina Tech, although he's closer to JG than Hooker in that range. That Tebow mention was not a deflection; it was merely a quip to let readers know you're part of the "derp QB wins derp" group of casuals. Luckily, good coaches eventually see the limits of continuing that line of reasoning. E.g., again think of Saban in 2018 in the championship of all games or Kirby in 2021 deciding to bench the USC transfer for a walk on DESPITE them being in the "win derp win" camp.

 

[Majors]

We're comparing individuals, so I'd love to see you demonstrate that Milton is noticeably better than JG. Let's see you try to do that WITHOUT reference to their team's record. I made the case that he's somewhere in between JG and Hooker's first year at Virgina Tech, although he's closer to JG than Hooker in that range. That Tebow mention was not a deflection; it was merely a quip to let readers know you're part of the "derp QB wins derp" group of casuals. Luckily, good coaches eventually see the limits of continuing the line of reasoning. E.g., again think of Saban in 2018 in the championship of all games or Kirby in 2021 deciding to bench the USC transfer for a walk on DESPITE them being in the "win derp win" camp.

Noticeably better? Believe I two gave examples. Haven’t seen a goal one fumble returned 99 yards or back to back pick 6. Not that hard my guy. Again you’re zigging and zagging on all these scenarios that happened elsewhere years ago to somehow make the connection here, if we are stepping into the “derp” connections. I’d love to make the comparison of Joe dealing with a WR like Jennings or Hyatt at his exposure. Derp! He’s got last years 3-4 now his 1-2.

 

[volfan102455]

Pointing out we won isn't the argument; it's irrelevant to the point of the discussion. Why? The discussion is if Milton is good, which is to say he contributes to winning the game, or that he's bad, which is to say that he unnecessarily limits or actively has a negative impact on the team's success. The evidence suggests that he's not only bad, but it suggests he's within spitting distance of JG bad. The fact is that it's a credit to Heupel, the run game, and the defense that they've managed to carry Milton to wins to this point. I simply prefer live games to ensure we are putting the best players out on the field before taking an unnecessary loss because of bad play at the most important position in sports. To preemptively answer a question, I'm willing to take the risk of an "unproven" player taking the reins simply because the level of play he has to perform to is so low as to expect anything different is not only an insult to him but a total dismissal of the usefulness of recruiting players.

Botton line it is always about winning the game. The only reason you want to ignore that is because it doesn't help your argument. If we had lost that is the FIRST thing you would use to argue for a new QB. But you can't use that ... since we are 5-1.

Would you rather play the QB YOU think should be playing and be 1-5 or worse or play the QB that the coaching staff believes should be playing and be 5-1?

I suspect and hope we'll see more of Milton running the ball in the coming weeks and if that helps us to win, it is definitely what should happen.

 

[Majors]

Botton line it is always about winning the game. The only reason you want to ignore that is because it doesn't help your argument. If we had lost that is the FIRST thing you would use to argue for a new QB. But you can't use that ... since we are 5-1.

Would you rather play the QB YOU think should be playing and be 1-5 or worse or play the QB that the coaching staff believes should be playing and be 5-1?

I suspect and hope we'll see more of Milton running the ball in the coming weeks and if that helps us to win, it is definitely what should happen.

Yahtzee! Real talk.

 

[Zues1]

Why do I get the impression Vol fans are afraid of change ? What is the point of recruiting 5-stars is you will not play them. There is a portal out there that they can jump to at any time. Right now we have no idea what Nicco can give us, but I know he can give us what Milton is giving us right now. I think Nicco can give us a 100 yards passing and hand the ball off. Joe's not out here reading defenses and making play calls.

Darn it, I bet CJH hadn't thought of that.

 

[Zues1]

This isn’t about nico for some of us. It’s about joe. How is nico? I don’t know. Hoe is joe? We do know. Do I think we could trot out nico or Moore and get 100yds and an end zone pic? I sure do.

5-1..lost to the same team UT had lost to for 20 years in Gainesville.
I'm not carrying water for Milton but it would appear Heupel is doing okay.

 

[Zues1]

Cuz He eventually will; if Tennessee maintains this type of Nucleus.

 

[Jxn Vol]

I think Nico needs a series or 2. The reason that this thread has life is because it’s unknown what is behind Joe.

Hooker was on the bench behind him at one point. I really think that’s all anyone is really saying when discussing this QB issue.

I have been hard on Joe. And criticism is warranted. A way to remove doubt is to get Nico some reps. Quite frankly it should have already been done because doing it in Tuscaloosa is not optimal.

 

[FlyFishnVol]

I really doubt there is anyone left who thinks Milton is the guy to get us any kind of championship. But, other than the very untimely INT he is a stabilizing force and when he does run can do damage with his legs. I guess my question is do we stick with his game management and just give up on the passing game realizing our WRs are not exactly world class either or do we go ahead and give Nico his chance? My honest opinion, while likely to be unpopular, is not to throw Nico into his first start at Tuscaloosa. Start Milton but have Nico ready if our passing game is as impotent as it was tonight. We could try the two QB thing too.

I am not a stat guy, but every QB that has been beloved by UT (Including Manning) had games with <200 yards passing. We can't sit back and say this is only a Milton thing. WRs have to catch the ball to register as actual passing yards...just saying.

 

[JHuntVols]

Noticeably better? Believe I two gave examples. Haven’t seen a goal one fumble returned 99 yards or back to back pick 6. Not that hard my guy. Again you’re zigging and zagging on all these scenarios that happened elsewhere years ago to somehow make the connection here, if we are stepping into the “derp” connections. I’d love to make the comparison of Joe dealing with a WR like Jennings or Hyatt at his exposure. Derp! He’s got last years 3-4 now his 1-2.

On so you're going with two atrocious plays out of the literal 1000s of drop backs that JG did in his collegiate career with TN. I can point out 3 plays from 2 days ago that demonstrate Milton's inaccuracy as a passer (the first play of the game was an overthrow on an out route), failure to read obvious coverages (Interception), and lack of situational awareness (not throwing the ball up in the air on a free play AND not even then securing a first down when making the wrong decision to run). And that was just from 2 days ago... I don't want to make myself more miserable by going back and watching more of him. Back to the side not cherry picking evidence, the examples of coaches doing the opposite of what you claim to be the best course of action are a direct counter to the mindset of play whichever player happened to be in the game during a win. That sort of superficial, frankly lazy analysis would get team analysts fired and rightfully so. Also, he had Payton, Hyatt, Tillman, and Small at his disposal during the first game against Bowling Green in 2021... and he managed a relatively awful stat line of 11/23 for 139 yards with only 1 TD. The rest is more history after him getting hurt against Pitt. Again, you can't defend his play on the field; you just got to stick to the derp QB wins derp argument to have a chance my man.

 

[JHuntVols]

Botton line it is always about winning the game. The only reason you want to ignore that is because it doesn't help your argument. If we had lost that is the FIRST thing you would use to argue for a new QB. But you can't use that ... since we are 5-1.

Would you rather play the QB YOU think should be playing and be 1-5 or worse or play the QB that the coaching staff believes should be playing and be 5-1?

I suspect and hope we'll see more of Milton running the ball in the coming weeks and if that helps us to win, it is definitely what should happen.

That would obviously depend on why we are 1-5. I'm not as lazy as some to merely look at who started the game at QB then look at the record and go, "damn bruH! What a winner! GBO!" If Milton was having 300 yard games and actually contributing to the team putting up a presumed 40+ points per game, then I'd have no issue with him... I'd obviously be focusing on why the defense is allowing 40+ points per game to beat us!

I don't want to hear any of the Milton defenders say a word when he absolutely ***** the bed and is the entire reason for us losing the game at Alabama next week.

 

[tncolt55]

Why? Seriously, WHY?
Saving a year of eligibility? Kids don’t even stay their full eligibility. Or they transfer. What is he waiting for? Is Nico hurt? Is Nico a bust? Inquiring minds want to know!

Nico only played 2 years of High school ball, it was at a fairly decent level of competition but not the highest. Throwing him into the SEC level this early would probably turn him into Shane Falco lol

 

[Majors]

On so you're going with two atrocious plays out of the literal 1000s of drop backs that JG did in his collegiate career with TN. I can point out 3 plays from 2 days ago that demonstrate Milton's inaccuracy as a passer (the first play of the game was an overthrow on an out route), failure to read obvious coverages (Interception), and lack of situational awareness (not throwing the ball up in the air on a free play AND not even then securing a first down when making the wrong decision to run). And that was just from 2 days ago... I don't want to make myself more miserable by going back and watching more of him. Back to the side not cherry picking evidence, the examples of coaches doing the opposite of what you claim to be the best course of action are a direct counter to the mindset of play whichever player happened to be in the game during a win. That sort of superficial, frankly lazy analysis would get team analysts fired and rightfully so. Also, he had Payton, Hyatt, Tillman, and Small at his disposal during the first game against Bowling Green in 2021... and he managed a relatively awful stat line of 11/23 for 139 yards with only 1 TD. The rest is more history after him getting hurt against Pitt. Again, you can't defend his play on the field; you just got to stick to the derp QB wins derp argument to have a chance my man.

Did you pop a game we won 38-6 as a moment of justification? Speaking of derp! He also had two rushing TDs but let’s not let those get in the way of a statline. Hit me with the JG win/loss record if you want to proceed as your go to stance.

 

[JHuntVols]

Did you pop a game we won 38-6 as a moment of justification? Speaking of derp! He also had two rushing TDs but let’s not let those get in the way of a statline. Hit me with the JG win/loss record if you want to proceed as your go to stance.

Oh ya you're trolling at this point. Those 38 points are not because of Joe Milton; he does not deserve the credit for that win. We got some barking on here about being a VFL and supporting the players on the team. I want that same group to tell the offensive line, the RBs, the defensive front, the secondary, tell everyone but the QB that they were not the reason for winning that game because the team record is merely a QB stat. Football is a meritocracy; credit is given where credit is due. Milton simply hasn't deserved anything of note yet.

 

[Jxn Vol]

Simple question for the Joe apologists:

If Joe is playing so poorly Saturday that he is the reason we could lose do you support pulling him?

I think that is all anyone is really saying when they are criticizing him. I personally am fine if he gets the start being on the road in Tuscaloosa. But when it’s obvious he doesn’t have it, it’s time for a trip to the mound.