Six to 10?

#101
#101
Dragon18 said:
He's all in on his determination that these coaches can't get it done and doesn't feel like he can say anything positive for fear it will make him a hypocrite. He and a few others are so invested in what they have put forth on these pages that if Butch doesn't fail it leaves them open to extreme backlash. It won't come from me. I just wish they weren't so sold out on the staff failing and then maybe they could search and find some positives to build on.

But as they say, different strokes for different folks. sjt and Oregonvol and the others are definitely entitled to their opinions, even if it really is too early to develop informed ones. :peace2:
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You would be amazed if you read how sjt defended Dooley. I lost some respect for him after going back and seeing how he made every excuse in the world for Dooley although by the end of year 2 the writing was on the wall for him.
 
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#102
#102
oregonvol said:
There's really no point in discussing anything with you. You are simply incapable of any legitimate form of debate. All you can ever manage is making up straw man arguments to undercut anyone using logic or to ascribe them motivations that make no sense. Your methodology is so silly, it even overshadows your reliance on that familiar mantra from the Dooley era "Can't make any evaluations for 3 years!"
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You can make evaluations every year. You just can't make conclusions, which is where you clearly are after 12 games.
 
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#103
#103
butchna said:
I question some of the coaching decisions from this past season...I don't think we were bereft of talent...I think the new talent and the holdovers will combine and gel this year...and we'll be proud of the result..if not, the clock starts to tick on ANOTHER coaching change...I choose to be positive and not SQUAWK MY HEAD OFF under the guise of holding the coaching staff accountable...change will come if needed....all YOU'RE doing is making noise...got it?
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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I don't want a coaching change nor am I squawking my head off. I get there we didn't have the talent to match up with the elite teams in the nation. All I've said was that I didn't think the coaches did a great job of coaching this year.Not that the coaches wouldn't get the job done in the future.I want this staff to succeed as much as anybody.
 
#105
#105
Dragon18 said:
He's all in on his determination that these coaches can't get it done and doesn't feel like he can say anything positive for fear it will make him a hypocrite. He and a few others are so invested in what they have put forth on these pages that if Butch doesn't fail it leaves them open to extreme backlash. It won't come from me. I just wish they weren't so sold out on the staff failing and then maybe they could search and find some positives to build on.

But as they say, different strokes for different folks. sjt and Oregonvol and the others are definitely entitled to their opinions, even if it really is too early to develop informed ones. :peace2:
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I'm just surprised by the acerbic nature of his posts. I don't remember him being that way before.

If someone doesn't think this staff's got it, that's fine. They're all just opinions.
 
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#109
#109
oregonvol said:
There's really no point in discussing anything with you. You are simply incapable of any legitimate form of debate. All you can ever manage is making up straw man arguments to undercut anyone using logic or to ascribe them motivations that make no sense. Your methodology is so silly, it even overshadows your reliance on that familiar mantra from the Dooley era "Can't make any evaluations for 3 years!"
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Do you even know what a straw man argument is? He was directly arguing your assertion about Hugh Freeze?
 
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#111
#111
KBVol said:
Not an "excusavol"..... you've seen some of my posts where I criticized Jones' coaching performance during that awful 4game stretch where we just looked awful, poorly coached, out coached.

But I just have fatigue around reading these incessant, non ending threads over and over criticizing Jones' coaching this year. I get it. You and Sjt18 and Wylo and few others think he did an awful job. At times I think he did too. But damn guys, give it a rest.... give him another offseason, another recruiting class, another Spring, another fall camp and 12 more games ... a bigger sample size to judge him on before starting another one of these "see, see, I TOLD YOU SO!!" Threads.
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Show me the "I told you so" thread I posted. I don't see it.

The only thread I started was in response to that fade guy questioning whether anyone said that 5-7 was a good season from the coaching staff. Also, it was an important follow up to my poll before the Vanderbilt game about whether 5-7 with a loss to Vanderbilt would indicate a job well done by our coaching staff. I think it's very notable (and very sad) that the majority of volnation are more willing to lower than standards and change their definition of "good" than to hold the staff accountable.

I haven't argued for Butch Jones to be fired. I haven't said, "I told you so" or any such thing. I am mostly just arguing with the people who want to excuse a loss to Vanderbilt by saying that we had less talent. And I will continue to argue that, because their viewpoint is insane. The sad thing is that there are so few of us who are willing to say that UT was not outmatched talent-wise, against Vanderbilt.
 
#112
#112
Freak said:
Are you saying you believe 6-10 players will be drafted?
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Depending on team needs and evaluations every OL is draftable..a 3-4 team could easily take a flyer on McCullers...if AJ declares then that's your possible 6 max...my opinion is 3 will be drafted out of that bunch
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#113
#113
I guess anything is possible but getting drafted doesn't mean their good enough to play in the NFL. Prentiss Waggner, Zach Rogers and Ben Bartholomew were drafted last year.
 
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#114
#114
volfan411 said:
You would be amazed if you read how sjt defended Dooley. I lost some respect for him after going back and seeing how he made every excuse in the world for Dooley although by the end of year 2 the writing was on the wall for him.
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That actually makes sense to me. He just doesn't want to get fooled again I guess. I wanted Dooley to succeed as well and wasn't critical of him until it was very clear he just didn't have what it was going to take to win. I would suppose there are several that supported Dooley only to be disappointed.
 
#115
#115
Dragon18 said:
Do you even know what a straw man argument is? He was directly arguing your assertion about Hugh Freeze?
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Okay, show me where he was "directly arguing [my] assertion about Hugh Freeze" in the quote I responded to:

fade route said:
The real problem is that at this point you would rather see Butch fail so you can be right rather than see Butch turn it around and have to admit on VN that he's a pretty good coach. He will be held accountable........when we have seen a reasonable sample size of his coaching ability in the SEC. Not after 12 games with a roster of someone else's players in a new system on both sides of the ball while playing a true freshman QB against one of the most difficult schedules I've ever seen us play.
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I can never tell with you guys - is it poor reading comprehension or just willful ignorance?
 
#116
#116
oregonvol said:
Show me the "I told you so" thread I posted. I don't see it.

The only thread I started was in response to that fade guy questioning whether anyone said that 5-7 was a good season from the coaching staff. Also, it was an important follow up to my poll before the Vanderbilt game about whether 5-7 with a loss to Vanderbilt would indicate a job well done by our coaching staff. I think it's very notable (and very sad) that the majority of volnation are more willing to lower than standards and change their definition of "good" than to hold the staff accountable.

I haven't argued for Butch Jones to be fired. I haven't said, "I told you so" or any such thing. I am mostly just arguing with the people who want to excuse a loss to Vanderbilt by saying that we had less talent. And I will continue to argue that, because their viewpoint is insane. The sad thing is that there are so few of us who are willing to say that UT was not outmatched talent-wise, against Vanderbilt.
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How do you feel about the SC win?
 
#117
#117
WriterVol said:
How do you feel about the SC win?
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Very good. I did nothing but praise it at the time.

But it doesn't mean I am going to ignore the games where we really didn't have a game plan or show any effort nor will it excuse losing at home to Vanderbilt.
 
#118
#118
Dragon18 said:
That actually makes sense to me. He just doesn't want to get fooled again I guess. I wanted Dooley to succeed as well and wasn't critical of him until it was very clear he just didn't have what it was going to take to win. I would suppose there are several that supported Dooley only to be disappointed.
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Yeah I guess he is taking the fool me once approach. I still do not know if this staff is the answer or not but I think they are doing what Dooley never could and that is bring in the type of recruits we need to get back to the top. Most of the national pundits said this was a 2-3 year rebuild job.
 
#119
#119
oregonvol said:
Show me the "I told you so" thread I posted. I don't see it.

The only thread I started was in response to that fade guy questioning whether anyone said that 5-7 was a good season from the coaching staff. Also, it was an important follow up to my poll before the Vanderbilt game about whether 5-7 with a loss to Vanderbilt would indicate a job well done by our coaching staff. I think it's very notable (and very sad) that the majority of volnation are more willing to lower than standards and change their definition of "good" than to hold the staff accountable.

I haven't argued for Butch Jones to be fired. I haven't said, "I told you so" or any such thing. I am mostly just arguing with the people who want to excuse a loss to Vanderbilt by saying that we had less talent. And I will continue to argue that, because their viewpoint is insane. The sad thing is that there are so few of us who are willing to say that UT was not outmatched talent-wise, against Vanderbilt.
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By the way, how exactly do you, a VN poster hold Butch and his staff "accountable"? By pouting at home and watching HGTV instead of the game? I'm sure Butch is reviewing game film this very moment because he knows if he doesn't, OregonVol will be there to hold him accountable. Lol.
 
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#120
#120
WriterVol said:
I'm just surprised by the acerbic nature of his posts. I don't remember him being that way before.

If someone doesn't think this staff's got it, that's fine. There all just opinions.
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Sound's like if he is a Dooley loyalist and defender - he is mostly hoping that CBJ and staff don't succeed. There really isn't a lot to support his arguments.

How these NegaVols can get lost in 6-10 seniors possibly getting drafted and ignore the number two recruiting class in the country tells me a lot about their makeup and motives.

I see nothing fair and balanced in the OP's thread or comments. He has a negative agenda and he starts one of these threads every week. He and his minions need to move on to another topic imo.
 
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#121
#121
oregonvol said:
Okay, show me where he was "directly arguing [my] assertion about Hugh Freeze" in the quote I responded to:



I can never tell with you guys - is it poor reading comprehension or just willful ignorance?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oregonvol View Post
I picked the only relevant part. Coaching isn't the same in professional baseball as it is in college football. Completely different animals.

And I don't care about the players CBJ "wants", the job is to win with the players you have. That's what everyone signs up for. James Franklin had to take over a 2-10 Vanderbilt team. I doubt he had the players he "wants", but he still made a bowl every year and managed to play more talented teams tough. Hugh Freeze inherited a 2 win team too. I bet it didn't have the players he wanted either. But he got them to a bowl in his first year and played high ranked teams tough. There are plenty of examples of coaches who, in their first year, without their guys and taking over for a coach who failed, managed to field competitive teams. In fact, it's probably more the rule than exception, when we're talking about coaches who succeed in the long run.

Freeze was only one game better than Butch in his first year during the regular season, and played only 4 top 20 teams and was drilled by every one of them. Butch faced 7 top 20 teams in his first year and beat one of them. So that comparison doesn't work.

There ya go. I'll give you a heads up too. Before you start tossing around insults and talking about poor reading comprehension you need to check yourself first. You're unarmed in this battle of wits.
 
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#122
#122
Dragon18 said:
He's all in on his determination that these coaches can't get it done
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That... is an abject, 100% falsehood. I challenge you to find a post where I said they would not get it done. I am completely comfortable with that challenge because I KNOW you can't.

and doesn't feel like he can say anything positive for fear it will make him a hypocrite.
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This is in fact another falsehood and possibly a lie. I have said numerous "positive" things LATELY about Jones.

I simply cannot say he and his staff did a great job of coaching or proved they were SEC championship quality coaches when their 5-7 record and overall competitiveness this fall leaves that VERY MUCH in question.

He and a few others are so invested in what they have put forth on these pages that if Butch doesn't fail it leaves them open to extreme backlash.
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No it doesn't. If he defies all odds and wins the SEC Championship next year that will be an EXCELLENT job of coaching. I've never said he wasn't capable. And it STILL won't change the fact that he did not get all he could out of THIS roster.

even if it really is too early to develop informed ones. :peace2:
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Completely and totally agree. It is also not time to close your eyes to what the coaches are doing whether good or bad. I see and give credit for the good. You do as well. The difference is I am honest and candid about the bad as well... while some of you try to ignore and dismiss it..
 
#123
#123
Dragon18 said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by oregonvol View Post
I picked the only relevant part. Coaching isn't the same in professional baseball as it is in college football. Completely different animals.

And I don't care about the players CBJ "wants", the job is to win with the players you have. That's what everyone signs up for. James Franklin had to take over a 2-10 Vanderbilt team. I doubt he had the players he "wants", but he still made a bowl every year and managed to play more talented teams tough. Hugh Freeze inherited a 2 win team too. I bet it didn't have the players he wanted either. But he got them to a bowl in his first year and played high ranked teams tough. There are plenty of examples of coaches who, in their first year, without their guys and taking over for a coach who failed, managed to field competitive teams. In fact, it's probably more the rule than exception, when we're talking about coaches who succeed in the long run.

Freeze was only one game better than Butch in his first year during the regular season, and played only 4 top 20 teams and was drilled by every one of them. Butch faced 7 top 20 teams in his first year and beat one of them. So that comparison doesn't work.

There ya go. I'll give you a heads up too. Before you start tossing around insults and talking about poor reading comprehension you need to check yourself first. You're unarmed in this battle of wits.
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What are you even talking about? You quoted one post I made in response to another poster and then a post fade route made that I never responded to? Huh? What is your point?
 
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#124
#124
1. the staff needs time to wash the dooley off. i said before the season that tennessee would be better in 2014. you don't just change a culture of losing overnight.

2. where tennessee was good, they were good. where they were bad, they were really, really bad.

3. most of the other teams on tennessee's schedule weren't playing with a bunch of scrubs.

4. we'll see how many actually get taken on draft day.
 
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#125
#125
volfan411 said:
They were not he adamantly defended Dooley.
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I defended the proposition that Fulmer should get his chance to turn the ship around. I, like so many here are doing, argued that we should avoid discussin negatives until it was time to act. I then did the same with Dooley.

I didn't "defend" either of them... just the idea that you hold judgment until it was time to make a final judgment.

I was wrong.

The balance of judgment is being loaded from the moment a coach says "I do". Jones has done some super things that are very easy to defend or praise. But the on field performance of his players and coaches in year one left much to be desired... and yes even for a team with a 1st year coach.
 
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