Socialism Fails Everytime ...

#851
#851
The Luther methodology for discussion:
Start with a faulty premise.
luthervol said:
Capitalism is rooted in greed. Our country has tried to bastardize the term into something good.
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Introduce a continuum where he judges where people are placed.
luthervol said:
Continuums.
Every persons level of greed is on a continuum.
From practically non-existent to all consuming.

Like most everything.
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End with a premise where he can mystically discern the heart of another person.
luthervol said:
It would depend on his intent.
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The method produces lively exchanges but not any understanding.
 
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#852
#852
EasternVol said:
Sorry for the misattribution. I have no reason to believe my car or groceries were produced further to an excessive and / or selfish desire for more. There was surely desire for a profit but there's nothing to indicate the desire was excessive, nor is there indication it was selfish.
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You think they built such enormous businesses on a “non-excessive” desire? The proof is in the success
 
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#853
#853
Vol8188 said:
You’re confusing stupid and greed. The greedy answer is “I’ll fix the problem, so I can continue selling cars in the future, because I desire more”
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Wrong. That answer isn't greedy in the least.
Think of it more this way.
Greed is enriching one's self at the known detriment to others.
 
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#855
#855
luthervol said:
Wrong. That answer isn't greedy in the least.
Think of it more this way.
Greed is enriching one's self at the known detriment to others.
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How do you know if your acquisition of wealth is detrimental to anyone else? And further, how do you define 'detrimental'?
 
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#856
#856
luthervol said:
Wrong. That answer isn't greedy in the least.
Think of it more this way.
Greed is enriching one's self at the known detriment to others.
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Nearly everyone with a job does that. You could be at the gym, but you’re at work. You could cooking a healthy meal, but you’re in a drive through. You’re doing things that are detrimental to yourself to obtain more.

But greed does not have to be negative. That’s what you seem to be missing. I’ve yet to see you find a definition of greed that contains a morality clause or a “against your own self interest” clause.
 
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#857
#857
hog88 said:
I will credit you with the best definition posted on this topic.

"The whole mindset of "get as much as you can, however you can" without regard to others"

That is my definition of greed.
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And using that definition, you do not view greed as a bad thing?
 
#859
#859
Vol8188 said:
Explain then. Why do car manufacturers exist? I would say they exist because their founders and current ceos all want more than they need (to borrow from Hog).

Why is that not greed?
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luthervol said:
These are the definitions I posted.
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Greed is an uncontrolled longing for increase in the acquisition or use of material gain; or social value, such as status, or power. Greed has been identified as undesirable throughout known human history because it creates behavior-conflict between personal and social goals.

You realize that is not a definition right? Only the first sentence is a definition.

That definition is about a desire for for more. Which is why all businesses exist. Because the person who started them wanted more in life than they had.

So how does this not meet your definition?
 
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#860
#860
McDad said:
The Luther methodology for discussion:
Start with a faulty premise.

Introduce a continuum where he judges where people are placed.

End with a premise where he can mystically discern the heart of another person.


The method produces lively exchanges but not any understanding.
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There is plenty there that should be easy to understand.
Capitalism thrives on greed.
Therefore, there has been an unfortunately all to successful effort to frame greed as a good, or at least acceptable, quality.
Greed is a natural tendency in all humans, but all do not react the same - continuums
The very essence of greed is rooted in intent.

For the life of me I can't see why so many struggle with the concepts.
 
#861
#861
SpaceCoastVol said:
How do you know if your acquisition of wealth is detrimental to anyone else? And further, how do you define 'detrimental'?
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Sometimes it's immediately obvious, sometimes not so much...........also on a continuum
Avoidably harmful.
 
#862
#862
Vol8188 said:
Nearly everyone with a job does that. You could be at the gym, but you’re at work. You could cooking a healthy meal, but you’re in a drive through. You’re doing things that are detrimental to yourself to obtain more.

But greed does not have to be negative. That’s what you seem to be missing. I’ve yet to see you find a definition of greed that contains a morality clause or a “against your own self interest” clause.
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By definition it is negative......if it's not negative, it is not greed.
 
#863
#863
luthervol said:
Biblical commentator John Ritenbaugh describes greed as a “ruthless self–seeking and an arrogant assumption that others and things exist for one's own benefit.”

Again, I'm not a religious person, but .......................
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I love that you're calling this one of your definitions of "greed". Do you use the definitions of religious scholars in other areas of life, or only when it comes to your understanding of greed?

If so, perhaps you should consider that the same way you believe religion has influenced everyone else's opinion of homosexuality, abortion, etc; that maybe you yourself are suffering from this same problem in terms of your understanding of greed. Because even if you don't want to admit it, you're just as susceptible as everyone else to the influences of culture.
 
#865
#865
Vol8188 said:
Where was negative at within that definition? Show me. It's not there.
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uncontrolled longing for increase in the acquisition or use of material gain; or social value, such as status, or power.

It's like the difference between a man who has a longing for young boys and a man who has an uncontrolled for young boys.

The longing itself is bad enough and should be repressed at all costs......it's the uncontrolled part that is the big difference maker.

Same with greed.
 
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#866
#866
luthervol said:
uncontrolled longing for increase in the acquisition or use of material gain; or social value, such as status, or power.

It's like the difference between a man who has a longing for young boys and a man who has an uncontrolled for young boys.

The longing itself is bad enough and should be repressed at all costs......it's the uncontrolled part that is the big difference maker.

Same with greed.
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Lmfao "longing" is a negative in your book? Your Church of Christ is showing Luther.

If not due to "longing", what got your through college? Longing is simply "desire", which is how I've been defining greed the entire time. Longing and desire alone are not negatives.
 
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#868
#868
Here's the real interesting part of the debate. Since our current capitalist system punishes most of the examples of evil "greed" that I've seen you mention, what's the problem? This system has created the most wealth the world has ever seen. People live longer and healthier lives on average. People are less likely to starve. People are safer. Where is the problem that I am missing that is unique to capitalism?

@luthervol @EasternVol
 
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#869
#869
Vol8188 said:
Here's the real interesting part of the debate. Since our current capitalist system punishes most of the examples of evil "greed" that I've seen you mention, what's the problem? This system has created the most wealth the world has ever seen. People live longer and healthier lives on average. People are less likely to starve. People are safer. Where is the problem that I am missing that is unique to capitalism?

@luthervol @EasternVol
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You're tilting at windmills.
 
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