Socialism vs Capitalism

[LouderVol]

All taxing and spending is not socialism.

99% of it is. you are taking from some to give to "all".

socialism can be good. socialism can be necessary. socialism could be required in the Constitution.

just because something is good, necessary, or required in our founding documents doesn't mean it isn't a socialist thing. no system of government has ever really been 100% one ideology, at least not at a national level. just like our republic is not a democracy, but it does have democratic (not the party) principles.

 

[hog88]

Welfare is the type of socialism the gov't runs. You're talking about the type of socialism where workers run things. Those as myself have fused the definition of socialism to include gov'ts control over the welfare system.

I took the part about workers co-owning the production straight from your post. You called that socialism.

 

[EasternVol]

Welfare is the type of socialism the gov't runs. You're talking about the type of socialism where workers run things. Those as myself have fused the definition of socialism to include gov'ts control over the welfare system.

If we make up definitions to suit ourselves it makes it difficult to communicate with others who apply established definitions and moreso with those who make up their own different definitions. Maybe that’s how we got to the point where some people think men can get pregnant.

 

[LouderVol]

you do not have to buy a car therefore do not have to pay gas taxes, license fees, etc. You chose to buy a car therefore chose to pay those taxes and fees whereby you have roads to drive your car on.

Therefore the gov't is "seizing" money from those that buy cars to build roads whereby ALL, not some, who pay those taxes benefit.

Seizing money from me to pay your SS check financially benefits YOU and financially hurts me...ALL do not benefit here.

in the road situation my taxes from buying gas goes to build more roads than I will ever drive. I drive less than 8 miles of interstate, i pay way more than 8 miles of taxes. if my tax money was ONLY going to the roads I drove, you would have an argument. but my taxes are going to fund the hundreds of miles of interstates in wyoming, montana, the dakotas, where there is very little tax money generated. those roads are not something I benefit from.

and again, me benefiting from it does not make it not socialist.

 

[jmacvols1]

 

[jmacvols1]

people from scandinavia will be immigrating to WV....

 

[Vol8188]

people from scandinavia will be immigrating to WV....

I’ve brought that up a few times. The standard of living for most of Europe is well lower than in this country.

If France were a state, it would be dead last in per capita GDP (approx 40k vs 47k for MS).

 

[Vol8188]

people from scandinavia will be immigrating to WV....

Also the wealth of Utah is worth pointing out. 1/3 of that state is dessert and yet it’s one of the wealthiest states in the country.

Culture and family values 100% matter

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

people from scandinavia will be immigrating to WV....

Scandinavians are one of the wealthiest groups of people on the planet. The median GDP doesn’t define them. Small populations and the government spends a lot on healthcare and other social programs and not necessarily a lot on defense and interest on their national debt.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

you do not have to buy a car therefore do not have to pay gas taxes, license fees, etc. You chose to buy a car therefore chose to pay those taxes and fees whereby you have roads to drive your car on.

Therefore the gov't is "seizing" money from those that buy cars to build roads whereby ALL, not some, who pay those taxes benefit.

Seizing money from me to pay your SS check financially benefits YOU and financially hurts me...ALL do not benefit here.

Well it is a ponzi

 

[Vol8188]

Scandinavians are one of the wealthiest groups of people on the planet. The median GDP doesn’t define them. Small populations and the government spends a lot on healthcare and other social programs and not necessarily a lot on defense and interest on their national debt.

That’s not gdp. That’s disposable income.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

Scandinavians are one of the wealthiest groups of people on the planet. The median GDP doesn’t define them. Small populations and the government spends a lot on healthcare and other social programs and not necessarily a lot on defense and interest on their national debt.

Maybe WE shouldn't be spending so much on NATO for THEIR defense then.

 

[Vol8188]

Scandinavians are one of the wealthiest groups of people on the planet. The median GDP doesn’t define them. Small populations and the government spends a lot on healthcare and other social programs and not necessarily a lot on defense and interest on their national debt.

Those countries governments spend more per capita than ours. So does France.

So you can’t blame their low gdp on our military spending. They have low gdp because they’re not producing

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

That’s not gdp. That’s disposable income.

Thanks. I read the chart wrong.

I’d like to see how the disposable income is being measured. Are those numbers after taxes? If so are the USA states’ numbers before paying for health insurance while the Nordic country calculations after they pay for their healthcare through taxes.

I find it hard to believe that West Virginia and Mississippi are full of people out-earning the Scandinavians. Something is fishy. Maybe the Americans include welfare in their disposable “income”.

 

[CobbVol]

I’ve brought that up a few times. The standard of living for most of Europe is well lower than in this country.

If France were a state, it would be dead last in per capita GDP (approx 40k vs 47k for MS).

But according to the UN, they have a higher HDI.

 

[Vol8188]

Thanks. I read the chart wrong.

I’d like to see how the disposable income is being measured. Are those numbers after taxes? If so are the USA states’ numbers before paying for health insurance while the Nordic country calculations after they pay for their healthcare through taxes.

I find it hard to believe that West Virginia and Mississippi are full of people out-earning the Scandinavians. Something is fishy. Maybe the Americans include welfare in their disposable “income”.

I think anyway you slice it, we come out ahead. You may not have got to it yet, but I commented on your gdp statement above. I agree with the idea that we should remove government spending with talking about gdp.

But all of the governments we have discussed spend more per capita than ours and still have lower per capita gdp than we do.

The American affinity for the Scandinavian system is based more in idealism than in reality

 

[Orangeburst]

Poorer and less freedom..yay say the dumb asses

 

[theFallGuy]

Sweden is rated higher on the freedom index than the US. So he is correct they aren't socialist.

Index of Economic Freedom: All Country Scores | The Heritage Foundation

Explore the Index of Economic Freedom to gauge global impacts of liberty and free markets. Discover the powerful link between economic freedom and progress. The 30th edition, once again, illustrates key factors shaping our world's landscape. From @Heritage

www.heritage.org

Index of Economic Freedom: Sweden | The Heritage Foundation

Explore the Index of Economic Freedom to gauge global impacts of liberty and free markets. Discover the powerful link between economic freedom and progress. The 30th edition illustrates key factors shaping our world's landscape. From @Heritage

www.heritage.org

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Those countries governments spend more per capita than ours. So does France.

So you can’t blame their low gdp on our military spending. They have low gdp because they’re not producing

I’m still thinking that it’s a statistical anomaly. “Median”. Small populations. Different taxation and social welfare systems. Norway is very rich with all of that North Sea oil.

Not “GDP@ BTW as I’ve been corrected on that. Disposable Income.

 

[n_huffhines]

Sweden is rated higher on the freedom index than the US. So he is correct they aren't socialist.

Index of Economic Freedom: All Country Scores | The Heritage Foundation

Explore the Index of Economic Freedom to gauge global impacts of liberty and free markets. Discover the powerful link between economic freedom and progress. The 30th edition, once again, illustrates key factors shaping our world's landscape. From @Heritage

www.heritage.org

Index of Economic Freedom: Sweden | The Heritage Foundation

Explore the Index of Economic Freedom to gauge global impacts of liberty and free markets. Discover the powerful link between economic freedom and progress. The 30th edition illustrates key factors shaping our world's landscape. From @Heritage

www.heritage.org

Socialism means controlling the means of production, and I think it's originally meant to be direct control (like Venezuela and the oil industry as an extreme example).

Basically, every western country has a croney capitalist economy with lots of indirect control over certain industries. Obamacare isn't socialist because it's a handout. It's socialist because it's an indirect control over production.

Our school system is in fact socialist. The government literally provides the large majority of k-12 education.

Surprise, Sweden and the US are both a little capitalist and a little socialist

 

[marcusluvsvols]

Also the wealth of Utah is worth pointing out. 1/3 of that state is dessert and yet it’s one of the wealthiest states in the country.

Culture and family values 100% matter

Thats likely not considering that probably 90% of the state is LDS and are giving a minimum of 10% of every dollar, fruit, vegetable etc they earn/cultivate to the church every year. They take care of their own too, when someone falls ill or loses a job etc. I personally believe Mormonism is a cult with some strange beliefs and practices...but they make great neighbors. My Dad was stationed at Hill AFB right outside SLC for 6 years. Spent 6 summers there. Other than Knoxville it is my favorite place in the US. Extremely clean, very little crime, amazing mountain ranges close by. Utah is awesome. My sister and I would walk to the community pool and swim all day in dry ~90 degree heat in the summers, when Dad got off work we would make sammiches etc for a picnic and in 1 hour drive be up in permanent snow on top of the mountains looking down on the whole valley where SLC and the Great Salt Lake lie. Its a great place to live. Every year when we got off the plane at the airport in Charlotte coming back, walking out the door was shockingly oppressive heat and humidity compared to where we had been for 2 months. Felt like being in someones armpit. Dry heat is SO much easier to deal with. Its not even comparable. The 1 thing I wouldnt like about Utah is all the snow they get in winter. That would suck as a southerner. Utah is a great place to raise a family though.

 

[n_huffhines]

Utah has natural resources, family values, and culture, but is only the 32nd wealthiest state (income adjusted for regional expenses).

List of U.S. states by adjusted per capita personal income - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Utah is also maybe the scam capital of the world.

The tech industry does love its Utah employees, but it also loves how insulated their data centers are from most natural disasters there and they enjoy inexpensive winter cooling. Hell, the NSA is in on that action. Gigantic facility in Utah.

BYU provides the area with a recruiting pool of the most international/nationwide graduates of probably any flyover state, too.

 

[volbound1700]

 

[Vol8188]

Thats likely not considering that probably 90% of the state is LDS and are giving a minimum of 10% of every dollar, fruit, vegetable etc they earn/cultivate to the church every year. They take care of their own too, when someone falls ill or loses a job etc. I personally believe Mormonism is a cult with some strange beliefs and practices...but they make great neighbors. My Dad was stationed at Hill AFB right outside SLC for 6 years. Spent 6 summers there. Other than Knoxville it is my favorite place in the US. Extremely clean, very little crime, amazing mountain ranges close by. Utah is awesome. My sister and I would walk to the community pool and swim all day in dry ~90 degree heat in the summers, when Dad got off work we would make sammiches etc for a picnic and in 1 hour drive be up in permanent snow on top of the mountains looking down on the whole valley where SLC and the Great Salt Lake lie. Its a great place to live. Every year when we got off the plane at the airport in Charlotte coming back, walking out the door was shockingly oppressive heat and humidity compared to where we had been for 2 months. Felt like being in someones armpit. Dry heat is SO much easier to deal with. Its not even comparable. The 1 thing I wouldnt like about Utah is all the snow they get in winter. That would suck as a southerner. Utah is a great place to raise a family though.

I served with many Mormons and attended PA school with several. Few people do as good of a job or representing the love of Christ. I’m sure there’s some bad apples, but I’ve not met them

 

[PEPPERJAX]

Thats likely not considering that probably 90% of the state is LDS and are giving a minimum of 10% of every dollar, fruit, vegetable etc they earn/cultivate to the church every year. They take care of their own too, when someone falls ill or loses a job etc. I personally believe Mormonism is a cult with some strange beliefs and practices...but they make great neighbors. My Dad was stationed at Hill AFB right outside SLC for 6 years. Spent 6 summers there. Other than Knoxville it is my favorite place in the US. Extremely clean, very little crime, amazing mountain ranges close by. Utah is awesome. My sister and I would walk to the community pool and swim all day in dry ~90 degree heat in the summers, when Dad got off work we would make sammiches etc for a picnic and in 1 hour drive be up in permanent snow on top of the mountains looking down on the whole valley where SLC and the Great Salt Lake lie. Its a great place to live. Every year when we got off the plane at the airport in Charlotte coming back, walking out the door was shockingly oppressive heat and humidity compared to where we had been for 2 months. Felt like being in someones armpit. Dry heat is SO much easier to deal with. Its not even comparable. The 1 thing I wouldnt like about Utah is all the snow they get in winter. That would suck as a southerner. Utah is a great place to raise a family though.

Yes, we are strange......