Socialism vs Capitalism

#251
#251
hog88 said:
I have friends who stayed in and retired and I'm pretty sure all of them have a pretty high disability rating but of course you aren't doing 20+ years in the infantry and/or special forces and not have your body wrecked. The guys that work for me were only in 4 and were surveyors.
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I work with a lot of ex military. A few did 20+, but most of them are 4 years. Pretty much all were plane or helicopter mechanics/avionics. I think the 100% disability guy in my previous post got out after 6 in the Air Force. Can't remember if it was medical or just didn't renew. The other two were 4 year guys.
 
#252
#252
LouderVol said:
uh, they are using tax payer money to build them. not everyone, or really anyone, will drive on EVERY road that their taxes pay for. you can't convince that the 6 million people driving in Atlanta taxes only pays for Atlanta roads. they are also paying for ALL the roads outside of Atlanta in Georgia, where there are far fewer people, but the interstates are no less expensive.

they are taking money from the richer areas and using it to pay for services in poorer areas. that is socialism. even if you agree with it.
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But roads are used and paid for by those who drive. You and I pay taxes that go to build roads and we get to use what we pay for. Socialism is taking from one person who financially causing financial loss, no benefit from that financial loss, for the sole benefit of another person.
 
#253
#253
jmacvols1 said:
But roads are used and paid for by those who drive. You and I pay taxes that go to build roads and we get to use what we pay for. Socialism is taking from one person who financially causing financial loss, no benefit from that financial loss, for the sole benefit of another person.
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No, that’s not socialism. It’s welfare, which exists in socialist and capitalist systems. Socialism has something to do with the control/ ownership of means of production.
 
#254
#254
EasternVol said:
So snitch him out. You’re part of the problem if you don’t.
By the way, what kind of disability payments would give him that kind of budget? It sounds fishy.
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The individual was involed in a road accident where he had to have many surgeries including skin grafts and bone repair. It left one leg slightly shorter than the other with a few other joint problems and he was declared totally disabled by the gov't, so can't snitch him out. Yet his life is not sitting in a wheel chair in a nursing home but a paid vacation. He was never going to run in the Olympics anyway....he is doing exactly what he wants to be doing for the last 2-3 decades...traveling all around fishing. I was told by those more familiaf with the situation he gets +3000 month.
 
#255
#255
EasternVol said:
No, that’s not socialism. It’s welfare, which exists in socialist and capitalist systems. Socialism has something to do with the control/ ownership of means of production.
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Building roads isn't welfare.

Now social security is welfare, it's welfare entitlement like gov't housing....it's socialized retirement.
 
#258
#258
jmacvols1 said:
Building roads isn't welfare.

Now social security is welfare, it's welfare entitlement like gov't housing....it's socialized retirement.
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Who’s saying roads are welfare?
SS benefits are based on contributions so it’s not so much welfare. It’s also not socialism.
 
#262
#262
jmacvols1 said:
Building roads isn't welfare.

Now social security is welfare, it's welfare entitlement like gov't housing....it's socialized retirement.
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Oh really? I have paid a **** ton of money into social security, Jack. I want my money back.
 
#263
#263
jmacvols1 said:
But roads are used and paid for by those who drive. You and I pay taxes that go to build roads and we get to use what we pay for. Socialism is taking from one person who financially causing financial loss, no benefit from that financial loss, for the sole benefit of another person.
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no its not.

socialism is taking from anyone and giving to another. doesn't matter if the person losing money gains from it or not.

the government is ALL socialism. the distinction you are making is "I like this socialism so I am not going to call it socialism."

roads are socialized transportation.
military is socialized defense.
social security is socialized retirement.
medicare/medicaid is socialized health care
schools are socialized education.

doesn't matter if you like it, benefit from it, or think the government should be doing it, its still socialism.

and to your point about getting your money back, if you pay taxes you don't get your money/value back. something like 40% to 60% of Americans don't pay federal income taxes. not every American pays a gas tax, not every American pays property tax, sales tax, whatever.
 
#264
#264
EasternVol said:
Who’s saying roads are welfare?
SS benefits are based on contributions so it’s not so much welfare. It’s also not socialism.
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how is it not socialism? the government is seizing an asset from one group and giving at least some of it away to other people.

pretty sure my return on SS is going to be around 30% at the CURRENT payout. I have another 30 years of contributing to the scam, and it will be far less by the time I am able to get any back out.
 
#265
#265
LouderVol said:
how is it not socialism? the government is seizing an asset from one group and giving at least some of it away to other people.

pretty sure my return on SS is going to be around 30% at the CURRENT payout. I have another 30 years of contributing to the scam, and it will be far less by the time I am able to get any back out.
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30% please show me that math.... or do you know you will live to be 127?
 
#267
#267
LouderVol said:
no its not.

socialism is taking from anyone and giving to another. doesn't matter if the person losing money gains from it or not.

the government is ALL socialism. the distinction you are making is "I like this socialism so I am not going to call it socialism."

roads are socialized transportation.
military is socialized defense.
social security is socialized retirement.
medicare/medicaid is socialized health care
schools are socialized education.

doesn't matter if you like it, benefit from it, or think the government should be doing it, its still socialism.

and to your point about getting your money back, if you pay taxes you don't get your money/value back. something like 40% to 60% of Americans don't pay federal income taxes. not every American pays a gas tax, not every American pays property tax, sales tax, whatever.
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All taxing and spending is not socialism.
 
#268
#268
SpaceCoastVol said:
Oh really? I have paid a **** ton of money into social security, Jack. I want my money back.
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unfortunately many if not most people think they have some legal "right" to a social security and they do not. The gov't can take away a person's SS check just like they can take away food stamps.

It's been in the news for awhile SS is going/already is bankrupt and benefits will have to be cut 20-24% by 2035:
www.fool.com

Here's What Needs to Happen to Avoid a 24% Social Security Benefits Cut | The Motley Fool

Hint: It's not pretty.
www.fool.com www.fool.com

The gov't does not have to ask your permission to cut your SS check nor is there anything you can do to stop them. If the gov't can cut your SS check 24% then what's to stop them from cutting it 54% or 64% or 84% or 100%? SS is just another welfare program where the gov't can do whatever it wants. If congress so desires tomorrow, they can rewrite all the SS laws and chnage them to whatever they want. The Dems have lied about SS for the last 90 years like they have lied about everything else.

Every year you paid SS taxes the gov't spent thay money every year on that years Federal budget, there is no trust fund that is accumulating your money for SS is nothing more than a pay as you go Ponzi scheme.

Research the Supreme Court case Nestor vs Flemming 1960 Social security case where the gov't took the Nesror's SS checks away and the Nestor's took it to court. It reached the Supreme court in 1960 and the SC sided with the gov't against the Nestors. The Justices did not have much to say in their ruling, the media did not cover this case much at all at the time but the SC decision had a profound effect on SS.
 
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#269
#269
SpaceCoastVol said:
Of all the 'hills to die on', this one is curious. There are vastly more abusive cases of getting government cheese than this one.
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I think most who get a disability check get it legitimately. The ones I see are living the life of riley on those checks at the expence of taxpayers.
 
#270
#270
EasternVol said:
I was saying that the definition you gave of socialism is not the definition of socialism,
I agree that roads are not socialism.
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Socialism is where workers co-own and produce goods.

The gov't controls, owns the welfare systems. Therefore the definition of socialism in this country, I see and others see it, has been fused with the gov'ts centralized control over welfare as workers have control over goods/production. Welfare therefore is a form of gov't socialism.
 
#271
#271
jmacvols1 said:
Socialism is where workers co-own and produce goods.

The gov't controls, owns the welfare systems. Therefore the definition of socialism in this country, I see and others see it, has been fused with the gov'ts centralized control over welfare as workers have control over goods/production. Welfare therefore is a form of gov't socialism.
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That is not socialism in any form.
 
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#272
#272
LouderVol said:
how is it not socialism? the government is seizing an asset from one group and giving at least some of it away to other people.
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you do not have to buy a car therefore do not have to pay gas taxes, license fees, etc. You chose to buy a car therefore chose to pay those taxes and fees whereby you have roads to drive your car on.

Therefore the gov't is "seizing" money from those that buy cars to build roads whereby ALL, not some, who pay those taxes benefit.

Seizing money from me to pay your SS check financially benefits YOU and financially hurts me...ALL do not benefit here.
 
#275
#275
hog88 said:
Yes but not "where workers co-own and produce goods". That is not socialism.
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Welfare is the type of socialism the gov't runs. You're talking about the type of socialism where workers run things. Those as myself have fused the definition of socialism to include gov'ts control over the welfare system.
 
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