Stop judging coaches by tourney success

[VolsAgainstTheWorld15]

I simply presented facts. Apparently you do not know what “jumped all over him and got defensive as hell” means.

BTW, Bruce Pearl had just made the Sweet 16 when TN hired him away from “****ing Wisconsin Miluwakee or whatever”. Same thing with KO at ****ing Marquette. How did those tenures end?

Here's the more accurate way to describe what happened:
1) I pointed out Barnes hasn't gone past the first weekend in 8 of his last 9 NCAA tournaments. Fact. I also made sure to say quite clearly that I'm pro Barnes so that my post was not taken out of context (which you proceeded to do anyways. Good job there.)
2) You couldn't stand that I criticized Barnes for his lack of recent NCAAT success and decided to throw words in my mouth with your "I guess it would have been better to miss the tournament 4 or 5 of those times" statement. Then, yes, you presented facts.

Everyone is going to have their opinion on Barnes. Mine is that he's a solid coach who is doing a fine job. I appreciate a coach who gets us to the tournament regularly. With that being said, I'm not going to pretend that he's still a good NCAA tournament coach because the evidence says otherwise. That's my final word on it. GBO

 

[mr.checkerboards]

Try to keep up. My facts were a direct counter to comments made in the “conversation”.

Can’t advance without getting there. Barnes does that at a much higher rate than TN basketball has historically made it. Also AP #1 for a month is a new height for the UTBB program. The 2018 regular season title was just the 4th in nearly 4 decades. The 2019 Sweet 16 was just the 8th in the history of TN basketball. TN is now signing NBA lottery picks (plural)... when has that ever happened before?

And all that had nothing to do with the post the poster was replying to in which the topinc was Barnes coaching in the tourney. Where said poster correctly pointed out that Barnes has only made it past the first weekend 1 time out of 9 in his last trips. Which in turn correctly points out my point of Barnes does not make runs deep enough consistently to break through to the EE or better. Only 1 point in your whole post had anything to do with the tourney.
Now if the statement was made that Barnes sucks in the regs season and has a lack of tournament success then you would be correct in pointing out those things. So, again you got defensive as hell because someone was criticizing Barnes without actually following the conversation.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Here's the more accurate way to describe what happened:
1) I pointed out Barnes hasn't gone past the first weekend in 8 of his last 9 NCAA tournaments. Fact. I also made sure to say quite clearly that I'm pro Barnes so that my post was not taken out of context (which you proceeded to do anyways. Good job there.)
2) You couldn't stand that I criticized Barnes for his lack of recent NCAAT success and decided to throw words in my mouth with your "I guess it would have been better to miss the tournament 4 or 5 of those times" statement. Then, yes, you presented facts.

Everyone is going to have their opinion on Barnes. Mine is that he's a solid coach who is doing a fine job. I appreciate a coach who gets us to the tournament regularly. With that being said, I'm not going to pretend that he's still a good NCAA tournament coach because the evidence says otherwise. That's my final word on it. GBO

It is accurate to point out that Barnes had possibly overachieved by taking teams to the NCAAT that a lesser coach would not have. Posters are slamming Memphis for winning the NIT. So based on that criteria, making those 9 tournaments indicates success. Barnes has made 3 straight SECT semis and 2 straight finals. That is a tournament, so Regular Season Rick is a weak CRBBer nickname.

There is evidence that CRB was a single questionable call from making the EE. Probably 2 had either that year’s Cinderella not had the luckiest of bounces or had TN’s tallest player not sat out with a hip injury. TN was also very competitive in both of those elimination games. I wonder what part of the coaching failed the team. Seems like the coaching had TN in position to be successful. Sometimes bad luck can’t be coached around.

Less than 5% of all teams eligible for the NCAAT make it past the first weekend. Fact.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

And all that had nothing to do with the post the poster was replying to in which the topinc was Barnes coaching in the tourney. Where said poster correctly pointed out that Barnes has only made it past the first weekend 1 time out of 9 in his last trips. Which in turn correctly points out my point of Barnes does not make runs deep enough consistently to break through to the EE or better. Only 1 point in your whole post had anything to do with the tourney.
Now if the statement was made that Barnes sucks in the regs season and has a lack of tournament success then you would be correct in pointing out those things. So, again you got defensive as hell because someone was criticizing Barnes without actually following the conversation.

Nothing to do with the tourney? Every fact that I posted was related to the tourney.

BTW, about 2.3% of eligible teams make the Elite Eight. That’s yet another fact. About once every 43 years on average if my math is correct. The odds become even more formidable if the spots taken by the handful of regulars are factored out.

 

[VolArmy74]

The OP is the worst take in the history of sports. Maybe we shouldn't keep W/L records or even score!

NCAA basketball's entire identity is tied to March Madness. It would be a glorified intramural sport at most schools without it. It's where the balance of money to have the sport is derived and drives every aspect of the season.

 

[EZE]

Entire body of work with the 4 month regular season being weighed more heavily than the tourney

Given that tournaments are how champions are crowned, I’d say that they are quite important and cannot simply be ignored.

And, yes, I’m a solid Barnes supporter.

 

[cncchris33]

You mean what you just did to that poster. He clearly said he didnt want Barnes fired and pointed out a very valid criticism come March, and you jumped all over him and got defensive as hell.
Secondly, and those coaches are the only ones that can win in March? Just because they arent a big name doesnt mean they cant win, ex Peal was at ****ing Wisconsin Miluwakee or whatever. Brad Underwood was at Stepehn F Austin. Besides Pearl I dont want anyone on your list they arent the only ones that can be succusful.

Brad Underwood is your example of a successful NCAAT coach? He is 3-5 in the NCAAT and couldn't get his #1 seed Illinois team out of the first weekend, just three weeks ago. In fact, he's never gotten any of his 3 teams out of the first weekend.

 

[LordBolton]

What should the measurement ne? Either you win the title or you fail. That's the two possibilities in sports.

 

[brockytop]

TN

What, district play? I was referring to the state tourney itself.

 

[LittleCat]

It isn’t so much the conference. The first 10 years are completely different because they were typically a high single or double digit seed that made it as far as their seeding was concerned. He built the program over the first 10-15 years and now the fruits are showing up in the past 6 tourneys/seasons.

My point is that Few is hard to judge because there's no other coaches in his situation. What other coaches have been at a midmajor dominating their league and getting to the tourney every single year? No one that I can think of. Some have done it in stretches and then taken better jobs. No one has done what Few is doing.

 

[LittleCat]

What should the measurement ne? Either you win the title or you fail. That's the two possibilities in sports.

I hate this but yes...there are certainly years that are good and years that are bad but the end goal for every team (even more so for the elite teams where its a very realistic possibility) is to win the title.

 

[brockytop]

Dumb post. TN won an SEC championship in March. TN made back-to-back SECT finals in March. TN sat out most NCAATs for a couple of decades while the program was neglected. Now we are regularly making the NCAAT, regularly signing players that will be in the NBA, and have even been at the top of the AP poll.

Go away. This is a TN forum.

FYI, it‘s been since 1979 that TN’s won a conference tournament and they tied for that championship you’re referring to. I’ll say this, you a dream come true fan for Rick Barnes. Win enough games in the regular season, beat UK and FL enough, and then it really doesn’t matter what happens when games mean the most. Congrats.

 

[beamerman]

I'll meet you half way on this one. I think it's weighted too heavily. People tend to undervalue the 30 game regular season.

However, you build enough great rosters and the tourney results should be there eventually.

I'm willing to criticize Barnes' NCAAT record, but I do value what he's done for the program. I'd prefer a coach that can do both, but it beats Donnie Tyndall.

Or Kevin O’Neill who was hired because he had success beating Ky in the NCAA tourney.

 

[golfballs]

I hate this but yes...there are certainly years that are good and years that are bad but the end goal for every team (even more so for the elite teams where its a very realistic possibility) is to win the title.

Expectations are different. Mississippi Valley State doesn’t fire their head coach because they aren’t winning nattys. Kentucky will. Tennessee won’t. When you evaluate what kind of job a coach is doing you have to have a baseline to evaluate against.

 

[cncchris33]

What should the measurement ne? Either you win the title or you fail. That's the two possibilities in sports.

So coaches like Mark Few, Rick Barnes, Bob Huggins, Chris Beard, Brad Stevens, the golden boy Bruce Pearl, even, are bad coaches? They haven’t won championships.

If you’re going to make the qualifier as black and white as winning championships, or not, then the measurement descriptive has to be equally proportionate; good and bad. Using that logic, good coaches win championships, bad ones don’t. Seems nonsensical when there are 350+ teams competing every year and winning the NCAAT is subject to a lot of luck and good fortune.

There are currently 10 active head coaches in college basketball who have won a title, 4 of which are probably out of college basketball within the next 3-5 years (Boeheim, Krzyzewski, Pitino, and Calhoun). They have 10 titles between them, I believe, in a combined 165 seasons.

 

[VolGee4]

I heard yesterday that Mark Few is only the third coach to take a program to at least 6 straight Sweet 16’s. The other two are Dean Smith and Coach K.

 

[hUTch2002]

I guess it would have been better to have missed the NCAAT entirely for 4 or 5 of those 9.

About 20% of teams make the field. 25% of those make it past the first weekend. 16 out of 347 did that this year. 4.61%.

The problem I think most people have is he is now paid in the top 1% of coaches. I think people would have had less issue had his salary still been $3.25M. At the time that was still top 15 nationally though. Now Barnes is making almost $5M so the expectations are higher. There’s no doubt we are overpaying him but we don’t need to knee jerk react to one year where we seemingly underachieved, especially in a weird year like it was. Let’s see what he does this year. If he doesn’t adapt his game I don’t think he will be here much longer.

 

[Big Orange Rob]

He's a good coach with high character and morals (which is important). He provided a stabilizing presence after the last couple of staffs. However, we will not get to elite status on a consistent basis with him unless he makes some adjustments. He hasn't recruited well enough to field a complete team, which contributed to his deficient offense. I'm hoping he makes the best of his last few years and sets us up for a more dynamic coach that can take us to the next level.

 

[BruinVol]

Brad Underwood is your example of a successful NCAAT coach? He is 3-5 in the NCAAT and couldn't get his #1 seed Illinois team out of the first weekend, just three weeks ago. In fact, he's never gotten any of his 3 teams out of the first weekend.

Lol
oops

 

[LittleCat]

Expectations are different. Mississippi Valley State doesn’t fire their head coach because they aren’t winning nattys. Kentucky will. Tennessee won’t. When you evaluate what kind of job a coach is doing you have to have a baseline to evaluate against.

Okay...so what's the baseline you judge Few by? He's a complete anomaly within college basketball right now. He's an elite coach with an elite program who plays in a bad conference. I think the only way to judge him is by his tourney success, which is pretty good. If his wins one title instead of losing two, then this discussion is completely different.

Titles cure all. Coach K has been to 2 final fours in the last 15 years. He won two titles. Gonzaga has been to 2, and both times lost the title games. There's an alternate universe where we talk about Duke hasn't won a title in 20 years and Few has won 2 out of the last 4 (really 3 considering Covid). Narratives change drastically with one or two games going another direction.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

FYI, it‘s been since 1979 that TN’s won a conference tournament and they tied for that championship you’re referring to. I’ll say this, you a dream come true fan for Rick Barnes. Win enough games in the regular season, beat UK and FL enough, and then it really doesn’t matter what happens when games mean the most. Congrats.

I’m not a drive-by poster, but thanks for the lesson. Did you know that Barnes has had half of the 4 SECT finals appearances in the 41 tournaments since Devoe won 2 games versus Auburn and UK in a 10 team SEC to win with the double-by in 1979?

TN sports really doesn’t need you, Basilio, or the idiot Cooper brothers stirring up **** at every turn either.

 

[golfballs]

Okay...so what's the baseline you judge Few by? He's a complete anomaly within college basketball right now. He's an elite coach with an elite program who plays in a bad conference. I think the only way to judge him is by his tourney success, which is pretty good. If his wins one title instead of losing two, then this discussion is completely different.

Titles cure all. Coach K has been to 2 final fours in the last 15 years. He won two titles. Gonzaga has been to 2, and both times lost the title games. There's an alternate universe where we talk about Duke hasn't won a title in 20 years and Few has won 2 out of the last 4 (really 3 considering Covid). Narratives change drastically with one or two games going another direction.

They’re the best program in the last 25 years without a title. But they got to that point as a program because of him crushing expectations. Dan Monson provided a big shot to that program but even after the Elite 8 he took them to in year 2, I think their fans were hoping that Few would come in and maybe help them make the tournament occasionally. Which they had only done so twice ever. The fact he’s made them title contenders and a Top 10 program is extraordinary. He might never win a title but that doesn’t mean he isn’t one of the best coaches of his era.

 

[zjcvols]

I mean Few is 46-30 in NCAA tourney games and in the past 6 years has made the Championship game twice and no worse than the Sweet 16.

That’s what people don’t understand. If Barnes was making S16 and E8’s and just couldn’t knock the Final Four door, that’s one thing. Dude has made one S16 since 2009! He hasn’t won a conference tourney since Bill Clinton’s first term!

 

[brockytop]

I’m not a drive-by poster, but thanks for the lesson. Did you know that Barnes has had half of the 4 SECT finals appearances in the 41 tournaments since Devoe won 2 games versus Auburn and UK in a 10 team SEC to win with the double-by in 1979?

TN sports really doesn’t need you, Basilio, or the idiot Cooper brothers stirring up **** at every turn either.

Yeah, getting to the finals of the conf tournament is the goal. Got it.

 

[VolGee4]

Okay...so what's the baseline you judge Few by? He's a complete anomaly within college basketball right now. He's an elite coach with an elite program who plays in a bad conference. I think the only way to judge him is by his tourney success, which is pretty good. If his wins one title instead of losing two, then this discussion is completely different.

Titles cure all. Coach K has been to 2 final fours in the last 15 years. He won two titles. Gonzaga has been to 2, and both times lost the title games. There's an alternate universe where we talk about Duke hasn't won a title in 20 years and Few has won 2 out of the last 4 (really 3 considering Covid). Narratives change drastically with one or two games going another direction.

More stats....Dean Smith had 3 Final Four's and 3 other Runner-Up's at UNC before winning his first title. Coach K had 2 Final Four's and 2 other Runner-Up's before he won his first title. John Calipari had 2 Final Four's, 1 Runner-Up, and 4 Elite Eight's before winning his title.

As Rob Dauster said on radio yesterday, Mark Few's resume is no different than other elite/hall of fame coaches. Most of them fail multiple times in big games before they actually win it.