Stupid At This Level Has No Party

#52
#52
TNGlen said:
Unions haven't been necessary for over 30 years and you can see that evidenced by there ever decreasing membership numbers.

The reason that I am more qualified than a majority of the teachers that my kids had is because I am way more educated than most of them. I have spoken to many of them and I have tutored kids that took the same material that they did and have observed the teaching methods. Too many times I have been told "wow, if my teacher would just explain it that way I would have understood it".
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You had a bad experience with a teacher and your party delegates marching orders against unions. I get it.

Maybe you are very educated (how did you get there btw?) and a good enough parent to be able to chose your children's educators. Even so, for every compitent parent out there, there are 10 wankers. To suggest that the education system be determined by some of the idiot parents I deal with on a daily basis is scary and irresponsible.

And to those saying its not a free service... Ok, neither is your military, are we going to have citizens grade every officer's performance and make recommendations on who they believe is best fit?

How about our infrastructure? Are we going to be standing behind every civil engineer's back grading his performance?

Teachers went to school to teach. They paid thier dues, got thier qualifications, and perform their duties. Just like you. Not all are fit for the job, just like your occupation. Every field has incompetent workers.

I don't know how the Repub's educational platform expects to remove the human element from teaching though. If you believe anything will, you are sorely mistaken.
 
#53
#53
OHvol40 said:
You had a bad experience with a teacher and your party delegates marching orders against unions. I get it.

Maybe you are very educated (how did you get there btw?) and a good enough parent to be able to chose your children's educators. Even so, for every compitent parent out there, there are 10 wankers. To suggest that the education system be determined by some of the idiot parents I deal with on a daily basis is scary and irresponsible.
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wait, are you saying you're an educator of some sort?

OHvol40 said:
How about our infrastructure? Are we going to be standing behind every civil engineer's back grading his performance?
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umm yes. That actually happens

OHvol40 said:
Teachers went to school to teach. They paid thier dues, got thier qualifications, and perform their duties. Just like you. Not all are fit for the job, just like your occupation. Every field has incompetent workers.

I don't know how the Repub's educational platform expects to remove the human element from teaching though. If you believe anything will, you are sorely mistaken.
Click to expand...

I don't care what they went to school for if they suck. In my company of someone can't do the job then they are fired. It happens in the real world

and the word is "their"
 
#54
#54
OHvol40 said:
You had a bad experience with a teacher and your party delegates marching orders against unions. I get it.

Maybe you are very educated (how did you get there btw?) and a good enough parent to be able to chose your children's educators. Even so, for every compitent parent out there, there are 10 wankers. To suggest that the education system be determined by some of the idiot parents I deal with on a daily basis is scary and irresponsible.

And to those saying its not a free service... Ok, neither is your military, are we going to have citizens grade every officer's performance and make recommendations on who they believe is best fit?

How about our infrastructure? Are we going to be standing behind every civil engineer's back grading his performance?

Teachers went to school to teach. They paid thier dues, got thier qualifications, and perform their duties. Just like you. Not all are fit for the job, just like your occupation. Every field has incompetent workers.

I don't know how the Repub's educational platform expects to remove the human element from teaching though. If you believe anything will, you are sorely mistaken.
Click to expand...

Well, I guess I will take a shot at this.

1) I have had bad experiences with SEVERAL teachers with my kids going thru public school and even had a bad experience with a teacher in private school.

2) It doesn't take an idiot to realize that unions cost this country billions a year. I have several teachers in my family. ALL OF THEM without fail say the teachers union is one of the biggest issues with the public school system today. The other is the politicizing of the administrations. Knox county pays their top school official nearly 300k per year to manage a state decreed budget. Sorry, I could do a better job for half the money. GM pays their janitors well over $50 an hour. They have union members on the assembly lines making much much more than their degreed engineers. Union are good for nothing but driving up costs. Why do you think foreign car companies are moving to Tennessee? They WON'T put up with union BS.

3) Many teachers went to school to teach. Many others got a teaching degree because they couldn't do anything else. Have one of those in my family also.

4) Why would we grade our military? If left alone by the liberals, we have the most elite military force of the face of the earth. We already have several public oversight offices for engineers, we don't need anymore. My work is reviewed several times before it is approved.

5) I have an idea, if you don't want to police the teachers and the teachers union, why can't we file malpractice suits on teachers? That way you can buy your malpractice insurance so when you tell a group of middle school students how the president is a screw up and start quoting the demorat talking points word for word for entire school periods instead of teaching I can just go file a malpractice suit. And when they complain to their class that they are paid enough and then go out and get in their brand new Mercedes I can file another one.

No one is asking that the human element be removed, just the S****Y teachers that want to preach political dogma and basically F off in the classroom. Why shouldn't I have the choice to use my tax money to send my kids to a private school instead of paying a union to do nothing and depend on me to teach them at night?
 
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#55
#55
utvolpj said:
wait, are you saying you're an educator of some sort?



umm yes. That actually happens



I don't care what they went to school for if they suck. In my company of someone can't do the job then they are fired. It happens in the real world

and the word is "their"
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Again, nope, not an educator.

QUALIFIED people grade Military Officers and civil engineers. Not trailer trash.

Teachers get fired too. Just like UPS employees, coal miners, steel mill workers or anybody else you want to think of in a union. If you believe otherwise, then I'm not sure that there is any more explaining to do.

This is child education, not "attack of the monster unions".

It's scary to me that people get blinded by party affiliations. Fox News and MSNBC are sooooo good at making one so blind with hate and rage for the other that we will never accomplish anything productive again.
 
#56
#56
the ineffective teachers are not fired for incompetence. They are protected by the unions. Give them long enough at the job and it would be impossible. The fact is the qualifications to keep a union job are so low you have to be a mental invalid to lose one without cutbacks

the teachers know who the bad ones are. If you don't think the "trailer trash" can do it then let fellow teachers do it. Although I'd trust the "trailer trash" over some lady who thinks the Dutch owned slaves in NY in 1898. And that lady makes policy!

It will get better once the Dept of Education leaves the field of education. They are not helping one bit. Let the citizens and their local representatives have the freedom to decide how their educational funds will be spent
 
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#57
#57
TNGlen said:
Well, I guess I will take a shot at this.

1) I have had bad experiences with SEVERAL teachers with my kids going thru public school and even had a bad experience with a teacher in private school.

2) It doesn't take an idiot to realize that unions cost this country billions a year. I have several teachers in my family. ALL OF THEM without fail say the teachers union is one of the biggest issues with the public school system today. The other is the politicizing of the administrations. Knox county pays their top school official nearly 300k per year to manage a state decreed budget. Sorry, I could do a better job for half the money. GM pays their janitors well over $50 an hour. They have union members on the assembly lines making much much more than their degreed engineers. Union are good for nothing but driving up costs. Why do you think foreign car companies are moving to Tennessee? They WON'T put up with union BS.

3) Many teachers went to school to teach. Many others got a teaching degree because they couldn't do anything else. Have one of those in my family also.

4) Why would we grade our military? If left alone by the liberals, we have the most elite military force of the face of the earth. We already have several public oversight offices for engineers, we don't need anymore. My work is reviewed several times before it is approved.

5) I have an idea, if you don't want to police the teachers and the teachers union, why can't we file malpractice suits on teachers? That way you can buy your malpractice insurance so when you tell a group of middle school students how the president is a screw up and start quoting the demorat talking points word for word for entire school periods instead of teaching I can just go file a malpractice suit. And when they complain to their class that they are paid enough and then go out and get in their brand new Mercedes I can file another one.

No one is asking that the human element be removed, just the S****Y teachers that want to preach political dogma and basically F off in the classroom. Why shouldn't I have the choice to use my tax money to send my kids to a private school instead of paying a union to do nothing and depend on me to teach them at night?
Click to expand...

I could get this word for word from Fox or some conservative newspaper hack.

How about real discussion rather than the same, old, tired party rhetoric.

If you want to have a union debate, we can go on for days about that. I think they are useful, you don't. Fine

What can you give me that I haven't already heard some rich suit stand on a podium and say? Because I havent heard any Repub's OR Dems make any suggestions that sound good to me.
 
#58
#58
utvolpj said:
the ineffective teachers are not fired for incompetence. They are protected by the unions. Give them long enough at the job and it would be impossible. The fact is the qualifications to keep a union job are so low you have to be a mental invalid to lose one without cutbacks

the teachers know who the bad ones are. If you don't think the "trailer trash" can do it then let fellow teachers do it.

It will get better once the Dept of Education leaves the field of education. They are not helping one bit. Let the citizens and their local representatives have the freedom to decide how their educational funds will be spent
Click to expand...

Teachers evaluating other teachers I like.

Then just more union-busting crap again.
 
#60
#60
So if parents choose their children's doctors and the world doesn't fall apart, why would allowing them to choose their teachers be so bad? I recognize that you think parents are stupid, but what is so hard about distinguishing good teachers from bad?

Your civil engineer comparison is a joke. Few people have experience with civil engineering, but nearly everybody has at least 12 years of classroom experience to compare teachers against.
 
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#61
#61
OHvol40 said:
Teachers evaluating other teachers I like.

Then just more union-busting crap again.
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Teachers are as dumb as parents, and it will become political. They have no incentive for a fair assessment.

BTW, research shows like 95% of educators believe they are better than the average educator.
 
#62
#62
utvolpj said:
not crap. Unions are an outdated idea that are limiting our effectiveness on a global market
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Ok, then I'm supposed to say... "but they are the only means of protection for the worker".... You say "it's a free market economy, competition breeds a better job market therefore the best people get the best jobs and employers will pay them what they are actually worth"..... I say "workers have been trampled on before, it will happen again with no unions"

Look, I get both sides. Both are valid arguments. I actually believe that, short-term, no unions may help the economy. I just happen to believe that looking big picture, unions are here for a reason, and that reason is greed. Greed has not gone away and never will. So there. I'm done talking unions.
 
#63
#63
OHvol40 said:
Ok, then I'm supposed to say... "but they are the only means of protection for the worker".... You say "it's a free market economy, competition breeds a better job market therefore the best people get the best jobs and employers will pay them what they are actually worth"..... I say "workers have been trampled on before, it will happen again with no unions"

Look, I get both sides. Both are valid arguments. I actually believe that, short-term, no unions may help the economy. I just happen to believe that looking big picture, unions are here for a reason, and that reason is greed. Greed has not gone away and never will. So there. I'm done talking unions.
Click to expand...

Yes. Greedy workers form unions. We agree on something.

Weird how most workers aren't part of unions, and they don't get trampled on.
 
#64
#64
utvolpj said:
and the word is "their"
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You forgot competent also there PJ. I would give this teacher an 85 for misspelled words. However, the union would grade it as an A and then require spell check training at a cost to the taxpayer of about $100 an hour plus travel expenses to and from training.
 
#65
#65
Here we go, got some data. Union workers only account for 12% of the labor force. In the last 50 or so years private sector unions have declined steadily, while public sector unions have grown. I wonder why that is? Oh, I know! It's because private sector wages are actually fair, and public sector wages can be manipulated politically. The unions act as a special interest group, and effectively hold the taxpayer hostage.

Labor unions in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
#66
#66
OHvol40 said:
I could get this word for word from Fox or some conservative newspaper hack.

How about real discussion rather than the same, old, tired party rhetoric.

If you want to have a union debate, we can go on for days about that. I think they are useful, you don't. Fine

What can you give me that I haven't already heard some rich suit stand on a podium and say? Because I havent heard any Repub's OR Dems make any suggestions that sound good to me.
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Maybe you ought to start LISTENING instead of putting the old union blinders on. My opine on unions was formed before FOX was a news channel and before you were born most likely.

Riddle me this:
So if two people get into an argument at work and one tells the other to "suck my D***" and then the other says "whip it out" and then the first pulls his privates out and waves it at the second guy in front of several other people of mixed gender, what should happen to each of these employees?
 
#67
#67
n_huffhines said:
Teachers are as dumb as parents, and it will become political. They have no incentive for a fair assessment.

BTW, research shows like 95% of educators believe they are better than the average educator.
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So teachers evaluating teachers is bad because it's political (even if they graded other teachers on the opposite side of the state for instance), but parents doing it won't become personal? Ok

And I'm sorry, but just because farmer Bob graduated high school does not qualify him to evaluate a physics teacher with a master's degree.

This war on teachers has gone crazy on the right side. I feel like teachers should be right there under soldiers and other public officers. They touch too many lives to be dragged through the mud like they are. There are not as many incompetent teachers out there as some are making it out to be.

The way all of you are sounding off against them sure makes me never want to teach. Bright kids entering college, even if they have a passion for teaching, see these attacks and wisely choose other ventures. I know this for a fact.

It's clear to me that this stand against teachers is not the answer.
 
#68
#68
n_huffhines said:
So if parents choose their children's doctors and the world doesn't fall apart, why would allowing them to choose their teachers be so bad? I recognize that you think parents are stupid, but what is so hard about distinguishing good teachers from bad?

Your civil engineer comparison is a joke. Few people have experience with civil engineering, but nearly everybody has at least 12 years of classroom experience to compare teachers against.
Click to expand...

Nice...
 
#69
#69
TNGlen said:
Maybe you ought to start LISTENING instead of putting the old union blinders on. My opine on unions was formed before FOX was a news channel and before you were born most likely.

Riddle me this:
So if two people get into an argument at work and one tells the other to "suck my D***" and then the other says "whip it out" and then the first pulls his privates out and waves it at the second guy in front of several other people of mixed gender, what should happen to each of these employees?
Click to expand...

Come on, OH, take a stab at the riddle......step up to the plate, swing away.
 
#71
#71
This is why I said I'm done talking about unions. Here comes the "union members stomp on daisys and eat babies" brigade.

We were having a decent banter but now look what you did.....

Anyways, I'm glad all of you here in this beautiful RED state of ours can sit around and agree with eachother.

Maybe you can tell me some more riddles about multiple men showing wedding tackle.
 
#72
#72
OHvol40 said:
So teachers evaluating teachers is bad because it's political (even if they graded other teachers on the opposite side of the state for instance), (1) but parents doing it won't become personal? Ok

And I'm sorry, but just because farmer Bob graduated high school does not qualify him to evaluate a physics teacher with a master's degree.

(2)This war on teachers has gone crazy on the right side. I feel like teachers should be right there under soldiers and other public officers. They touch too many lives to be dragged through the mud like they are. There are not as many incompetent teachers out there as some are making it out to be.

The way all of you are sounding off against them sure makes me never want to teach. Bright kids entering college, even if they have a passion for teaching, see these attacks and wisely choose other ventures. I know this for a fact.

It's clear to me that this stand against teachers is not the answer.
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(1) WTF said that? Of course parents will take it personally. It's their MFing kids. Public sector employees protect each other. Good cops rarely rat out bad cops. It's generally accepted that you don't "do one of your own guys". How would teachers from across the state evaluate a teacher better than a parent who actually has a decent idea of what is going on in that particular classroom?

(2) Wanting public employees to be held accountable doesn't exactly constitute a "war". It's a job, dude. They wouldn't do it if they didn't get paid. They deserve as much praise as any average Joe deserves for doing his job.

I'm pretty sure you or maybe your wife is a professional educator. My Dad is. My grandparents were. And they're ashamed of what K-12 public sector teachers collectively have become.
 
#73
#73
n_huffhines said:
(1) WTF said that? Of course parents will take it personally. It's their MFing kids. Public sector employees protect each other. Good cops rarely rat out bad cops. It's generally accepted that you don't "do one of your own guys". How would teachers from across the state evaluate a teacher better than a parent who actually has a decent idea of what is going on in that particular classroom?

(2) Wanting public employees to be held accountable doesn't exactly constitute a "war". It's a job, dude. They wouldn't do it if they didn't get paid. They deserve as much praise as any average Joe deserves for doing his job.

I'm pretty sure you or maybe your wife is a professional educator. My Dad is. My grandparents were. And they're ashamed of what K-12 public sector teachers collectively have become.
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Don't play dumb. You know what I meant by making things personal. Small towns.... People know other people.... Personal grudges.... You get the picture.
 
#74
#74
I still have not heard another usefull solution to the problems in the educational system. Just the same old gripes and rhetoric.
 
#75
#75
OHvol40 said:
I still have not heard another usefull solution to the problems in the educational system. Just the same old gripes and rhetoric.
Click to expand...

Sure you have. Going ostrich hasn't changed that you're ignoring anything useful for the broken and expensive, union addled status quo.
 
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