Successful SEC Coaches in their 1st seasons...

#102
#102
UTRavens said:
So...because we asked to be patient with Dooley, we can't be patient with Butch Jones? Why is "we did the same thing with Dooley" being brought up as if it's some kind of burn? It WAS proper to be patient with Dooley, and his first year actually wasn't too bad. He did go on to show he couldn't cut it, but that doesn't mean we should have judged him right away.
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There is a difference between asking for patience and asking for idiocy. Patience is waiting to beat the top teams in your conference and win a championship. Idiocy is not expecting any evidence of progress or anything but blowout losses to good teams. It was idiocy to think that Dooley deserved 3 years here before you could determine that he was a failure. And it is idiocy to assume that any future coach shouldn't be evaluated or should get another "year zero" before anyone expects any sign of progress.
 
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#103
#103
JohnMarxism said:
The fact that you are asking that question is the very reason why this thread is useless.
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And yet, you're still here...

If you want to avoid any critical thinking regarding the coaching of UT football for a lengthy amount of time, may I suggest you just avoid the internet altogether?
 
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#106
#106
UTRavens said:
So...because we asked to be patient with Dooley, we can't be patient with Butch Jones? Why is "we did the same thing with Dooley" being brought up as if it's some kind of burn? It WAS proper to be patient with Dooley, and his first year actually wasn't too bad. He did go on to show he couldn't cut it, but that doesn't mean we should have judged him right away.
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Sure. We can be patient... as long as we don't continue to see Dooley-like results. Like it or not... Saturday was a Dooley-like result.
 
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#109
#109
all these coaches also didn't walk into having the hardest schedule in the country playing 5 preseason top 10 teams in 6 games
 
#111
#111
oregonvol said:
Everyone plays a tough schedule. We don't really know how tough of a schedule we're playing is anyway, until the season ends and we see where teams finish up. But if you want to start that thread, feel free.

I've already said that I will tabulate the 4*s and 3*s on the teams Butch, Franklin, and Hugh Freeze started with in a new thread soon. Going back to the rosters on teams 9-10 years ago is more difficult because I don't know of an easy resource that has that info. But, I will look into including Spurrier's first team at South Carolina, if possible.
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Everyone doesn't play a tough schedule! If you believe that you are seriously kidding yourself. Now if you are looking for a reason to start a fire CBJ campaign. Just do it. Don't beat around the bush with these bs threads. You can compare this teams record after three games to teams that played full seasons but we cant compare schedules after 3 games. Thats not fair! Hell maybe it is since were basing our opinions off of incomplete data. We are 2 - 1! Go Vols
 
#112
#112
oregonvol said:
And yet, you're still here...

If you want to avoid any critical thinking regarding the coaching of UT football for a lengthy amount of time, may I suggest you just avoid the internet altogether?
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oregon we know u r not saying fire cbj but to evaluate him each game n at the end of the year n compare those results to previous winning coaches n usually that will be a good comp to future sucess..

most people dont want to be measured because they know then they have to.perform or get fired....lol

i think he wins 7 games but what the.op posted.is fact n should be something we measure any coach against until we win a championship again
 
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#113
#113
oregonvol said:
There is a difference between asking for patience and asking for idiocy. Patience is waiting to beat the top teams in your conference and win a championship. Idiocy is not expecting any evidence of progress or anything but blowout losses to good teams. It was idiocy to think that Dooley deserved 3 years here before you could determine that he was a failure. And it is idiocy to assume that any future coach shouldn't be evaluated or should get another "year zero" before anyone expects any sign of progress.
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You certainly appear to have the market cornered on idiocy. You post hyperbolic responses to arguments no one is making then tear them down with sarcastic generalizations. And all of your facts are deficient because they fail to provide a sufficient basis for accurate comparison. Yet, when that's pointed out, you complain that no one is addressing your facts, or you simply resort to the sarcastic ridicule. I hope you don't have a career which requires you to construct rational arguments about anything.
 
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#114
#114
zidanefan said:
You certainly appear to have the market cornered on idiocy. You post hyperbolic responses to arguments no one is making then tear them down with sarcastic generalizations. And all of your facts are deficient because they fail to provide a sufficient basis for accurate comparison. Yet, when that's pointed out, you complain that no one is addressing your facts, or you simply resort to the sarcastic ridicule. I hope you don't have a career which requires you to construct rational arguments about anything.
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You talk about generalizations but yet you don't offer any concrete information to disprove anything I've said. You rely solely on subjective criticism and insults. And I'm sorry that the wins and losses of every other successful coach hired in the SEC in this century are insufficient to even offer a comparison to Butch Jones. Why don't you just tell me who we ought to be comparing him to? How far back do you need to go? What level of competition do we need to drop to for you to find a comparison you deem adequate for discussion?
 
#115
#115
oregonvol said:
You talk about generalizations but yet you don't offer any concrete information to disprove anything I've said. You rely solely on subjective criticism and insults. And I'm sorry that the wins and losses of every other successful coach hired in the SEC in this century are insufficient to even offer a comparison to Butch Jones. Why don't you just tell me who we ought to be comparing him to? How far back do you need to go? What level of competition do we need to drop to for you to find a comparison you deem adequate for discussion?
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How about no comparisons are adequate for discussion, since Butch Jones has only been here for 3 games and the results are dependent on such wildly varying circumstances from one case to another that they are basically irrelevant?
 
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#116
#116
oregonvol said:
In search of a factual basis in which to judge Butch Jones' first season, I thought we could look at the first years of coaches who were hired in the SEC in this century, who ultimately ended up being successful at their schools.

I noted their embarrassing losses (which I categorize as either a loss to an opponent with significantly less talent or a loss to an opponent where you just got thoroughly drubbed by a mass of points) and big wins (which I categorize as upsets over opponents with significantly higher rankings and/or talent, or an absolute drubbing of a respectable opponent with similar talent/ranking).


Mark Richt, Georgia
previous team record: 8-4
record in 1st year: 8-4
Bad Losses: None
Big/Upset Wins: Tennessee (#6 at home, W 26-24)

Urban Meyer, Florida
previous team record: 7-5
record in 1st year: 9-3
Bad Losses: Alabama (L 31-3), South Carolina (L 30-22)
Big/Upset Wins: Florida State (decisive win over ranked rival, W 34-7)

Nick Saban, LSU
previous team record: 3-8
record in 1st year: 8-4
Bad Losses: Florida (L 41-9)
Big/Upset Wins: Tennessee (#11, W 38-31)


Nick Saban, Alabama
previous team record: 6-6
record in 1st year: 7-6
Bad Losses: Louisiana Monroe (L 17-12)
Big/Upset Wins: Tennessee (decisive win over ranked rival, W 41-17)

Les Miles, LSU
previous team record: 9-3
record in 1st year: 11-2
Bad Losses: none
Big/Upset Wins: Miami (decisive win over top 10 team, W 40-3)

Gene Chizik, Auburn
previous team record: 5-7
record in 1st year: 8-5
Bad Losses: None
Big/Upset Wins: None

Bobby Petrino, Arkansas
previous team record: 8-5
record in 1st year: 5-7
Bad Losses: Alabama (L 49-14), Texas (L 52-10), Florida (L 38-7)
Big/Upset Wins: LSU (W 31-30)

Steve Spurrier, South Carolina
previous team record: 6-5
record in 1st year: 7-5
Bad Losses: Auburn (L 48-7)
Big/Upset Wins: Tennessee (W 16-15), Florida (W 30-22)

James Franklin, Vanderbilt
previous team record: 2-10
record in 1st year: 6-7
Bad Losses: Alabama (L 34-0)
Big/Upset Wins: Wake Forest (W 41-7), *also close losses to Tennessee, Florida, Arkansas & Georgia, (all within a touchdown) notable simply because they are Vanderbilt, after all

...So what can we learn here? What stands out to me is that the majority had at least one bad, uncompetitive loss in their first season. But also, everyone except Chizik had either a big upset win or a decisive blowout over a talented team (or, in the case of Vanderbilt, at least a comparably or arguably more talented rival). Several coaches took over teams with losing records and all made it to a bowl in their 1st year. Out of 9 instances, only 1 coach (Petrino) failed to show improvement in their first year in either win/loss record or in victories over ranked rivals. Petrino is also the only one of the 9 to lose more than 1 game in blowout fashion.
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meaningless.

Were any hired as the 4th head coach in that program in 6 years? If not, the comparison is meaningless.

What attrition rates had their programs suffered in the 3 years previous to their hire??

no two programs are the same so what a first year coach does, does not mean someone else should duplicate that.

Good research but has little meaning to how Butch Jones will or will not do at Tennessee
 
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#117
#117
LWSVOL said:
meaningless.

Were any hired as the 4th head coach in that program in 6 years? If not, the comparison is meaningless.

What attrition rates had their programs suffered in the 3 years previous to their hire??

no two programs are the same so what a first year coach does, does not mean someone else should duplicate that.

Good research but has little meaning to how Butch Jones will or will not do at Tennessee
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Completely agree with your post. I hate that people are constantly grading every second of every player and coach on the team. There is enough pressure to perform in the SEC without unreasonable "fans" criticizing every breath every player and coach makes.
 
#118
#118
oregonvol said:
Everyone plays a tough schedule. We don't really know how tough of a schedule we're playing is anyway, until the season ends and we see where teams finish up. But if you want to start that thread, feel free.

I've already said that I will tabulate the 4*s and 3*s on the teams Butch, Franklin, and Hugh Freeze started with in a new thread soon. Going back to the rosters on teams 9-10 years ago is more difficult because I don't know of an easy resource that has that info. But, I will look into including Spurrier's first team at South Carolina, if possible.
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You just lost all (if any) credibility after the first sentence you typed. I am hoping that you are either really drunk or just had some sort of brain fart because if you really believe that statement then you truly are dumb.

Take UL for example. A lot of people are talking about Bridgewater right? Who does he play? According to you their schedule is tough and is on par with other teams in the top 10. That is absolute lunacy. You're another person who needs someone with some level of common sense to proof read your posts.
 
#122
#122
BigOrangeTrain said:
You just lost all (if any) credibility after the first sentence you typed. I am hoping that you are either really drunk or just had some sort of brain fart because if you really believe that statement then you truly are dumb.

Take UL for example. A lot of people are talking about Bridgewater right? Who does he play? According to you their schedule is tough and is on par with other teams in the top 10. That is absolute lunacy. You're another person who needs someone with some level of common sense to proof read your posts.
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Where in this entire thread did I suggest comparing Butch Jones with coaches in other conferences? In fact, that's exactly what I have argued against. SEC COACHES. THIS CENTURY.

Please actually read my posts before you hurl your 3rd grader insults. Thank you.
 
#123
#123
If we had bought out of the Oregon game....and drawn Mississippi State rather than Ole Miss in the west....the OP might have a point. The schedule is brutal.
 
#124
#124
oregonvol said:
I'm not going to go back and research it, but I'm pretty sure the South Carolina team that Spurrier inherited had much lower recruiting rankings over the previous 4 years than UT has had. Ditto Saban's 1st LSU team. But of course we can't look at recruiting rankings or win/loss record or anything factual when making excuses for Butch.

Nope, it's the same as it was for Dooley. He inherited the worst situation ever in the history of football and we can't expect him to make any progress until his contract is up.

And if you're determined to bury your head in the sand or up the AD's a$$, that's cool. This thread was intended for people who like to use logic and facts and actually evaluate a coaching staff. If you don't believe in evaluations, go check out one of those "Open Letter to..." threads, instead.
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You can't go on recruiting rankings when you have the amount of turnover we've had. In the last 5 yrs we have went through 3 coaches and lost players due to attrition each time a new regime was put into place. Recruiting rankings don't mean squat when you lose as many players over a 5 yr period as we have.
 
#125
#125
oregonvol said:
You talk about generalizations but yet you don't offer any concrete information to disprove anything I've said. You rely solely on subjective criticism and insults.
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It's been done in this thread and you've dismissed the comments.

Strength of Schedule - not only teams/rankings, but how they finished the season
Roster - both star rankings, as well as how players have developed/contributed
Game Stats - how was the game won?
Attrition - good call, LWS

These are a couple that have been mentioned of many.

And I'm sorry that the wins and losses of every other successful coach hired in the SEC in this century are insufficient to even offer a comparison to Butch Jones.
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This is the type of comment that typifies your "rationale" throughout this thread. The point, which you continue to miss, is not that nobody wants to consider W/L record, but that there are many other factors which must be considered.

Why don't you just tell me who we ought to be comparing him to? How far back do you need to go? What level of competition do we need to drop to for you to find a comparison you deem adequate for discussion?
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You're insulting your own intelligence. You need no help from me. No need to go back to 1910. Just make it a real analysis.

The ridiculous thing about this entire charade is that I (and many others in this thread) agree with your premise that Jones needs to get his $#!% together and prove it on the field.

Do we have the delusional portion of the fanbase who will blindly support a coach? Yes. Is Jones going to get three years here regardless? I'd be shocked if he didn't.

I'll assess, realistically, based on what I see on the field. I genuinely believe that a truly elite coach should be able to pull an upset or two against teams who outmatch his. But I'm not going to look at a W/L record at the outset of a season and make some proclamation that if he doesn't match X coach's record he's a failure. That's incredibly short-sighted, in my opinion.
 
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