Syrian Kurds are close to declaring Independence

#851
#851
NorthDallas40 said:
I believe the Kurds, Syrians, and Russians are in the middle of foreplay before getting formally in bed together. I don’t think the Kurds can stand the Syrians or the Russians but a tenuous alliance there might save them from ethnic destruction at the hands of Erdogan. This fight has been coming for a very long time. We need to get the hell out of the way.
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So you are saying this alliance will be against the Turks? We can go back several years for increased co-operation between the Turks and Russians, although that aircraft shoot down was an issue. The Russians are already starting to arm the Turks and there are several articles from past couple of years indicating closer partnership. Not to mention Iranian involvement with Russia and Turkey.
I wonder if there are factions in the Kurds or if they are rather homogenous.
 
#852
#852
Stew Cook said:
Well, we are talking about Syria, so the Russians around every corner applies well enough.

As it is, our troops are now observers. I suppose someone could ask them how they feel about it.
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Oh, sure. Ask them away. But as a reminder, at the end of the day, they are still bound to follow orders of the President of the United States. Unless, of course, you feel like our military shouldn't remain under civilian authority.

Here's the thing. Turkey was going in whether or not we wanted them to. We tried working out the dynamics of what they were doing and they walked away from the negotiations effectively ending any say we might have had in the matter. You can blame Trump all you want, but I'd tend to think all the Presidents we've had (or the alternatives in 2016) would be in the same predicament.

Again, we will have serious questions on if (or maybe when) Russia gets involved and starts hammering Turkish troops in that area. They will scream about how they were "attacked" and call for an emergency NATO meeting. Now, if I was Trump, I'd be forming a coalition against Turkey in this matter and telling them "you're on your own since you decided to pull this stunt to begin with." All while telling Russia "no further than the Turkish border or we will get involved."

This is a big **** sandwich we've gotten ourselves involved in by going into Syria with unclear motives and a distinct lack of national security implications.
 
#853
#853
Orangeburst65 said:
So you are saying this alliance will be against the Turks? We can go back several years for increased co-operation between the Turks and Russians, although that aircraft shoot down was an issue. The Russians are already starting to arm the Turks and there are several articles from past couple of years indicating closer partnership. Not to mention Iranian involvement with Russia and Turkey.
I wonder if there are factions in the Kurds or if they are rather homogenous.
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The Russians are propping up Assad. The SDF and Assad’s forces are the primary combatants left in Syria. The Kurds of which the SDF are one subsection and Turkey are ethnic enemies. Turkey is beyond waiting to end their beef with the Kurds, of which the SDF is a part. The SDF cuts a deal for survival with Assad who is a proxy for Russia. So yeah the battle line will be Russia, Syrian government forces, and Kurds including SDF vs Turkey. What remains to be seen is if Turkey will try to invoke Article 5 if they start getting their ass handed to them. If they do NATO needs to tell them to pound sand.
 
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#854
#854
Grand Vol said:
Oh, sure. Ask them away. But as a reminder, at the end of the day, they are still bound to follow orders of the President of the United States. Unless, of course, you feel like our military shouldn't remain under civilian authority.

Here's the thing. Turkey was going in whether or not we wanted them to. We tried working out the dynamics of what they were doing and they walked away from the negotiations effectively ending any say we might have had in the matter. You can blame Trump all you want, but I'd tend to think all the Presidents we've had (or the alternatives in 2016) would be in the same predicament.

Again, we will have serious questions on if (or maybe when) Russia gets involved and starts hammering Turkish troops in that area. They will scream about how they were "attacked" and call for an emergency NATO meeting. Now, if I was Trump, I'd be forming a coalition against Turkey in this matter and telling them "you're on your own since you decided to pull this stunt to begin with." All while telling Russia "no further than the Turkish border or we will get involved."

This is a big **** sandwich we've gotten ourselves involved in by going into Syria with unclear motives and a distinct lack of national security implications.
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Yep. Throwing Turkey’s ass back north of the border is Syrian’s defense right and their allies. But we need to make it clear to Russia that no incursion into Turkey will be tolerated. Turkey earned an ass whipping on this one.
 
#855
#855
It’s kinda stupid on Turkey’s part when you look at a map. Turkey will have Russia to the north east and south in a continuous line. Ukraine has to be looking at Erdogan thinking “SMDH...”

Edit: I mean proxies of Russia here btw.
 
#856
#856
Grand Vol said:
Oh, sure. Ask them away. But as a reminder, at the end of the day, they are still bound to follow orders of the President of the United States. Unless, of course, you feel like our military shouldn't remain under civilian authority.

Here's the thing. Turkey was going in whether or not we wanted them to. We tried working out the dynamics of what they were doing and they walked away from the negotiations effectively ending any say we might have had in the matter. You can blame Trump all you want, but I'd tend to think all the Presidents we've had (or the alternatives in 2016) would be in the same predicament.

Again, we will have serious questions on if (or maybe when) Russia gets involved and starts hammering Turkish troops in that area. They will scream about how they were "attacked" and call for an emergency NATO meeting. Now, if I was Trump, I'd be forming a coalition against Turkey in this matter and telling them "you're on your own since you decided to pull this stunt to begin with." All while telling Russia "no further than the Turkish border or we will get involved."

This is a big **** sandwich we've gotten ourselves involved in by going into Syria with unclear motives and a distinct lack of national security implications.
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Do you think Putin advocated withdrawal to Trump?
 
#860
#860
carlos86 said:
If a people look you in the eye and say they are willing to fight and die for their freedom and all they want you to do is put a rifle in their hand and assist here and there you. And America we know of on the international stage was created after it led the world to victory or the Axis and again won the Cold War. When you are the world’s only remaining superpower, the worlds largest economy, the leader of the Western world, and the moral compass and leader of the free world you inundated of have moral responsibilities and the are obligated to intervene when the interest of the United States are threatened.
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The two items above are where the main hypocrisy comes into play. We can virtue signal about us being the "moral compass" (which even that is open for debate with abortion and break up of the nuclear family in the US), yet we can allow genocides to happen in other parts of the world that do not fit "our" strategic interests. I put "our" in quotes because I still dont understand how intervention in Middle Eastern affairs benefits the average American, but does benefit some business interests.
 
#861
#861


So what happens if a military engagement between Turk and Syrian regime forces?
 
#863
#863
Grand Vol said:
Oh, I'm sure the Democrats and media are going to come up with all kinds of snazzy slogans.

I do find the "Russia will get a foothold in the Middle East!" comments rather humorous. As if they didn't have a longstanding relationship in the Middle East as it is going back to the Soviet Union days. But the Chicken Littles of the world just can't stop from seeing "Muh Russians!" behind every corner.

I especially like the "We're the world's remaining superpower and we need to act like it!" argument. Here's the thing. Turkey is violating the internationally recognized sovereign territory of Syria. If Syria (and all groups therein) decides to enlist Russian help with that little problem, we can (and should) tell the Turks to GFY when the Russians go after them. They alone are responsible for this problem since they took it upon themselves to perform that invasion.

Of course, GOP warhawks and Democrats opposing everything Trump does will screech and scream about one of our "allies" getting attacked and invoking Article 5. Because, of course, we can't have THAT even though the Turks started it. They are being a bully right now and the little kid is asking for help from his big cousin.

If that big cousin steps in, we have serious questions to ask on whether or not we should honor our treaty commitments when one of our "own" is the aggressor.
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I dont think things will get to that point. I think that Syria, the Turks and Russia are just moving to reestablish order along the Syrian-Turkish border and stabilize the region from the PKK radicals. Turkey, Iraq, Iran and Syria have at least one common interest, and that is controlling the Kurdish upheaval that the West helped to stir up.
 
#869
#869
Grand Vol said:
The same Russian jet that violated Turkish airspace?
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That is what was alleged. Facts proving one way or the other are slim on both the Turkish and Russian side.

Point being, Putin isn't going to knee jerk do something that would even tempt NATO to put Article 5 into play, no matter how shakey of a partner Turkey is in NATO.
 
#870
#870
Rasputin_Vol said:
That is what was alleged. Facts proving one way or the other are slim on both the Turkish and Russian side.

Point being, Putin isn't going to knee jerk do something that would even tempt NATO to put Article 5 into play, no matter how shakey of a partner Turkey is in NATO.
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Putin will push because he believes NATO will not come to the aid of Turkey. I absolutely believe Russians and Turks will spill each other’s blood in this action. And right now I agree we shouldn’t come to the aid of Turkey unless their sovereign boundaries are threatened.
 
#871
#871
Rasputin_Vol said:
That is what was alleged. Facts proving one way or the other are slim on both the Turkish and Russian side.

Point being, Putin isn't going to knee jerk do something that would even tempt NATO to put Article 5 into play, no matter how shakey of a partner Turkey is in NATO.
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Well, that's the question right there. Whether or not Article 5 could be invoked if the Russians only hammered Turkey within the Syrian border.

However, if Russia does send troops into the region to protect their newfound "allies" and one is injured or killed, I'd say all bets are off. Again, the Alliance doesn't have to support a nation that's proven to be the aggressor.
 
#872
#872
Grand Vol said:
Well, that's the question right there. Whether or not Article 5 could be invoked if the Russians only hammered Turkey within the Syrian border.

However, if Russia does send troops into the region to protect their newfound "allies" and one is injured or killed, I'd say all bets are off. Again, the Alliance doesn't have to support a nation that's proven to be the aggressor.
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Don't see Russian ground troops doing the heavy lifting that will by the SAA and the Kurds. Only thing I could see is the Russian Air Force proving air cover to the forces on the ground.
 
#875
#875
Burhead said:
Don't see Russian ground troops doing the heavy lifting that will by the SAA and the Kurds. Only thing I could see is the Russian Air Force proving air cover to the forces on the ground.
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Some SU-25’s are gonna get shot down in this. Those pilots will be killed or captured. Turkey isn’t a third world military. The treatment of those pilots remains and their captivity is the wild card here.
 
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