Taiwan: We have to bomb TSMC in order to save it

[Rasputin_Vol]

Yes, meaning you’re dismissing it as nothing. Yet you wouldn’t have the same attitude if we sent troops in to overthrow the current regime in Puerto Rico. You wouldn’t say “we can’t invade ourselves!”.

So why do you make the distinction despite being the one who made the initial comparison?

It depends on the circumstances. You can't just make a blanket statement like "I am against ALL military intervention". If you come up with a specific example of why we should be taking military action in Puerto Rico, I'm all ears. But what you not going to do is get me trap myself in a binary/yes/no decision.

And yest, the world is complicated and I do make distinctions, btw. I don't deny that.

 

[Vol8188]

It depends on the circumstances. You can't just make a blanket statement like "I am against ALL military intervention". If you come up with a specific example of why we should be taking military action in Puerto Rico, I'm all ears. But what you not going to do is get me trap myself in a binary/yes/no decision.

And yest, the world is complicated and I do make distinctions, btw. I don't deny that.

What’s the specific reason you consider this acceptable from China?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

What’s the specific reason you consider this acceptable from China?

Only if the US does some sort of military provocation.

Now keep in mind, if the elections in Taiwan are free and fair next year, you may possibly see the KMT take over and you will likely see a pivot to China and better relations. The Chinese have all the time in the world to wait this out. But the US could expedite the mater in a similar way that they did in Ukraine.

 

[AM64]

Puerto Rico is the US. How do you invade yourself?

The Puerto Rico / Taiwan comparison is a bad argument. Taiwan has stated it is separate from China - did so a long time ago when the non Communist faction left China to the Communists and declared they wanted no part of communism. We have granted independence to any number of territories, protectorates, etc that we gained generally from wars with countries that colonized them. Puerto Rico has chosen to remain what they are rather than ask for independence or statehood. A lot of us would see the US being rid of Puerto Rico as a bonus.

 

[AM64]

I'm not making any argument about ownership of the chip factory. My point is the idea of destroying the factory just because of an invasion.

Why would you destroy a factory or anything on Taiwan and insert yourself in a conflict that is none of our business? Taiwan is part of China. And, what benefit is it for the US to destroy a chip factory? It just doesn't make any sense... other than to just have sour grapes or c*ckblock China.

And after this week, what good would it do to destroy the chip factories if China is able to produce chips of equal quality on the mainland?

It is our business and that of the rest of the world. Taiwan has technology that we use and China wants. It is a strategic issue, and a blunder on our part and of the rest of the free world that the best chip manufacturing lies in a country close to and illegally claimed by our enemy. If you don't view China as a totalitarian entity and the enemy to the free world, I don't think the rest of us can help you. Globalists are naïve thinkers with little understanding of the world; they are the people who thought we could coexist with and have free trade with totalitarian trash.

 

[AM64]

Why is that a benefit to America? Its just c*ckblocking.


Who said China is thinking about taking the factory in the first place? Again, it appears they have their own capabilities of producing chips on the mainland.


Well known? Known by whom?

Also, I bet a $100 that the Chinese have been getting some assistance from Taiwanese in their chip making. You all act as though in 2023, you can just shut down technological advances with sanctions and threats and blowing up facilities. You also act as though the Chinese, Russians and Indians don't have the technological ability to figure out how to produce chips.

What would be more beneficial for America would be for us to develop our own domestic chip production and stop worrying about what the Chinese or anyone else is doing.

That is one thing you do have right. Where there is money to be made, there is always someone willing to sell out his country for profit.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

It is our business and that of the rest of the world. Taiwan has technology that we use and China wants. It is a strategic issue, and a blunder on our part and of the rest of the free world that the best chip manufacturing lies in a country close to and illegally claimed by our enemy. If you don't view China as a totalitarian entity and the enemy to the free world, I don't think the rest of us can help you. Globalists are naïve thinkers with little understanding of the world; they are the people who thought we could coexist with and have free trade with totalitarian trash.

So how does it help the world to have TSMC factories destroyed?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

The Puerto Rico / Taiwan comparison is a bad argument. Taiwan has stated it is separate from China - did so a long time ago when the non Communist faction left China to the Communists and declared they wanted no part of communism. We have granted independence to any number of territories, protectorates, etc that we gained generally from wars with countries that colonized them. Puerto Rico has chosen to remain what they are rather than ask for independence or statehood. A lot of us would see the US being rid of Puerto Rico as a bonus.

That isn't official US policy. Taiwan is recognized as part of mainland China.

And show me where Taiwan stated they were not a pat of mainland China.

 

[AM64]

So how does it help the world to have TSMC factories destroyed?

Since you like to use the fact that the US is the only nation to use atomic weapons and had the sole supply of weapons at one time, Chinese ownership of TSMC would be close to the same thing ... only "economic". China is not a free country and is an aggressor. Sole ownership of a strategic property would put China in a very unique position. You put me in mind of the naiveite of people who sold out the US to make sure that other countries had access to nuclear weapons to balance the unfair position the US held. Why do you not view China and Russia with the same jaundiced view that you do the US or Saudi Arabia?

Chinese companies build electronics and the chips inside with an eye toward espionage and sabotage. WTH could go wrong if they were the sole supplier of the really advanced stuff. And BTW the recent announcement on the new and most advanced phone yet is proving to be bogus - they aren't there, but they want to be, and theft to do it works just fine in the Chinese mind.

 

[AM64]

That isn't official US policy. Taiwan is recognized as part of mainland China.

And show me where Taiwan stated they were not a pat of mainland China.

You know very well that was diplomatic stupidity as a way of appeasing China ... with the thought that China could be a reasonable and rational nation. Other than the position granting the UN seat to China rather than Taiwan, I don't think any country in the free world actually sees Taiwan as part of China. BTW China recognizes most of the S China Sea as Chinese even though the "World Court" decided otherwise.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Since you like to use the fact that the US is the only nation to use atomic weapons and had the sole supply of weapons at one time, Chinese ownership of TSMC would be close to the same thing ... only "economic". China is not a free country and is an aggressor. Sole ownership of a strategic property would put China in a very unique position. You put me in mind of the naiveite of people who sold out the US to make sure that other countries had access to nuclear weapons to balance the unfair position the US held. Why do you not view China and Russia with the same jaundiced view that you do the US or Saudi Arabia?

Chinese companies build electronics and the chips inside with an eye toward espionage and sabotage. WTH could go wrong if they were the sole supplier of the really advanced stuff. And BTW the recent announcement on the new and most advanced phone yet is proving to be bogus - they aren't there, but they want to be, and theft to do it works just fine in the Chinese mind.

Why don't we just manufacture chips domestically?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

You know very well that was diplomatic stupidity as a way of appeasing China ... with the thought that China could be a reasonable and rational nation. Other than the position granting the UN seat to China rather than Taiwan, I don't think any country in the free world actually sees Taiwan as part of China. BTW China recognizes most of the S China Sea as Chinese even though the "World Court" decided otherwise.

Only a dozen countries recognize an independent Taiwan.

Factbox: And then there were 13: Taiwan's diplomatic allies

Honduras has ended its decades-long relationship with Taiwan and said it only recognised China, leaving Taiwan with formal diplomatic relations with only 13 countries.

www.reuters.com

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

And BTW the recent announcement on the new and most advanced phone yet is proving to be bogus - they aren't there, but they want to be, and theft to do it works just fine in the Chinese mind.

They will get there in relatively short order. Between Russia, India and Taiwan, the Chinese will have enough technical resources to get there.

You can't sanction a country like China and expect them cap their development.

 

[AM64]

Why don't we just manufacture chips domestically?

That is the question. I'm guessing we passed on that because chips from Taiwan (and elsewhere) were far cheaper, so companies here supported manufacturing in Taiwan. I don't do much with electronics these days (can't repair a lot of stuff anyway), but years ago it was amazing to see the wide array of countries of origin on ICs. I'd bet the really high tech stuff now is Taiwanese. BTW a lot of components and instrumentation used to be manufactured in Puerto Rico, but I have no idea if that's still true today.

 

[AM64]

They will get there in relatively short order. Between Russia, India and Taiwan, the Chinese will have enough technical resources to get there.

You can't sanction a country like China and expect them cap their development.

If they get there on their own, great, but those countries haven't shown a real aptitude for anything requiring finesse even though they do have some excellent academic abilities. The India Institutes of Technology are probably some of the best in the world.

 

[Orangeburst]

That is the question. I'm guessing we passed on that because chips from Taiwan (and elsewhere) were far cheaper, so companies here supported manufacturing in Taiwan. I don't do much with electronics these days (can't repair a lot of stuff anyway), but years ago it was amazing to see the wide array of countries of origin on ICs. I'd bet the really high tech stuff now is Taiwanese. BTW a lot of components and instrumentation used to be manufactured in Puerto Rico, but I have no idea if that's still true today.

12% of gdp is manufacturing. pathetic. look at the list

Share of manufacturing by country, around the world | TheGlobalEconomy.com

The average for 2022 based on 150 countries was 12.87 percent. The highest value was in Puerto Rico: 43.02 percent and the lowest value was in Micronesia: 0.49 percent. The indicator is available from 1960 to 2022. Below is a chart for all countries where data are available.

www.theglobaleconomy.com

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

That is the question. I'm guessing we passed on that because chips from Taiwan (and elsewhere) were far cheaper, so companies here supported manufacturing in Taiwan. I don't do much with electronics these days (can't repair a lot of stuff anyway), but years ago it was amazing to see the wide array of countries of origin on ICs. I'd bet the really high tech stuff now is Taiwanese. BTW a lot of components and instrumentation used to be manufactured in Puerto Rico, but I have no idea if that's still true today.

If people like you are willing to go to war with China over chip manufacturing, wouldn't it be rational to instead bring production back home no matter the cost? Its either be put over the barrel depending on foreign chips or produce them domestically.

 

[AM64]

12% of gdp is manufacturing. pathetic. look at the list

Share of manufacturing by country, around the world | TheGlobalEconomy.com

The average for 2022 based on 150 countries was 12.87 percent. The highest value was in Puerto Rico: 43.02 percent and the lowest value was in Micronesia: 0.49 percent. The indicator is available from 1960 to 2022. Below is a chart for all countries where data are available.

www.theglobaleconomy.com

I couldn't find the US on the list even when sorted by country.

 

[Orangeburst]

I couldn't find the US on the list even when sorted by country.

i couldn’t either but it is 12. not sure why

Some brief figures on U.S. manufacturing include the following: In 2021, Manufacturing contributed $2.3 trillion to U.S. GDP amounting to 12.0 % of total U.S. GDP. Including direct and indirect (i.e., purchases from other industries) value added, manufacturing contributed an estimated 24 % of GDP.

Manufacturing Industry Statistics | NIST​

 

[AM64]

If people like you are willing to go to war with China over chip manufacturing, wouldn't be rational to instead bring production back home no matter the cost? Its either be put over the barrel depending on foreign chips or produce them domestically.

Of course, it would make sense to build chips in the US - as well as all other strategic materials. The question is can we afford it. You have read the recent UAW demands? And there are the environmental and other regulations that our companies face - but no prohibitions on importing and using stuff made where there are no concerns about any of that stuff.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I couldn't find the US on the list even when sorted by country.

Is Taiwan on that list?

 

[AM64]

Is Taiwan on that list?

Nope, but it's a weird list for the inclusions and omissions. For example, Puerto Rico is listed as a country - not part of the US, and the US isn't on the list at all. So by that alone, the list itself doesn't make your argument for Taiwan as a part of China, which I assume is where you were heading.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Nope, but it's a weird list for the inclusions and omissions. For example, Puerto Rico is listed as a country - not part of the US, and the US isn't on the list at all. So by that alone, the list itself doesn't make your argument for Taiwan as a part of China, which I assume is where you were heading.

It did list China, which includes Taiwan and the mainland... LOL.

BTW, that wasn't my link/list, so don't get mad at me.

 

[AM64]

It did list China, which includes Taiwan and the mainland... LOL.

BTW, that wasn't my link/list, so don't get mad at me.

It does, in fact, list China but doesn't claim that the Chinese numbers include Taiwan. Do you really think Taiwan would send China the data? Along with your line of reasoning, why would Puerto Rico be considered separate from US manufacturing?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

It does, in fact, list China but doesn't claim that the Chinese numbers include Taiwan. Do you really think Taiwan would send China the data? Along with your line of reasoning, why would Puerto Rico be considered separate from US manufacturing?

I was joking. Relax, boomer.