The Future Right-Wingers Want....

#304
#304
John F. Kennedy on the Separation of Church and State--a constitutional principle that conservatives and christians
seem often to ignore...

 
#306
#306
EasternVol said:
Many think that morality comes from reason so there's no such presumption.
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Interesting assertion. But if that were the case, then wouldn’t we think that with an increase in reasoning that morality would simultaneously improve? Yet modern society, built on rationality has strangely in the past 100 years given us history’s most brutal and deadly societies. Between Mao’s China, Stalin’s Soviet Union and the Killing Fields of the Khmer Rouge, we probably saw over 100 millions slaughtered or purposely starved.
And even more telling, Germany, probably the country known for the best reasoning, gave us the Third Reich. It was the home of the greatest modern philosophers who took reasoning to a higher level than ever before. Ironically, it was one of those very rational Germans, Nitsche, who argued that religion wasn’t needed, that God was “dead”, and wrote the book “Beyond Good and Evil”. This philosophy that man’s rationality had made religion unnecessary was a key pillar of Hitler’s National Socialist political dogma and led inexorably to the slaughter of millions more and the great crime that was the Holocaust.
I would argue that all modern man’s vaunted “reason” has done for us is simply to make us more efficient killers while simultaneously removing any belief that we have to answer for these crimes on the other side of the grave. A VERY dangerous combination if you ask me.
But thank you for a very challenging conversation on the topic. And I am not being sarcastic when I say that.
 
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#307
#307
turbovol said:
John F. Kennedy on the Separation of Church and State--a constitutional principle that conservatives and christians
seem often to ignore...

Click to expand...

Thanks for pointing this out to me. But can you help me out further? I keep searching the Constitution and can’t seem to find that particular phrase. Please point it out to me so I can stop ignoring it. It appears my education has been faulty.
 
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#308
#308
turbovol said:
The origins of ethical conduct date back to the ancient Greeks, Chinese (Confucious), etc.

www.britannica.com

History of ethics | Ancient Greece, Scholasticism, Renaissance, British and Continental Traditions, & Contemporary Ethics

History of ethics, the philosophical discipline concerned with what is morally good or bad and what is morally right or wrong.
www.britannica.com www.britannica.com
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So are you claiming that before the Classical Greeks that man had no concern for ethical conduct? Surely that would be a surprise to the Mesopotamians, the Egyptians, the Babylonians, and the Hebrews.
 
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#309
#309
OrangeTsar said:
Interesting assertion. But if that were the case, then wouldn’t we think that with an increase in reasoning that morality would simultaneously improve? Yet modern society, built on rationality has strangely in the past 100 years given us history’s most brutal and deadly societies. Between Mao’s China, Stalin’s Soviet Union and the Killing Fields of the Khmer Rouge, we probably saw over 100 millions slaughtered or purposely starved.
And even more telling, Germany, probably the country known for the best reasoning, gave us the Third Reich. It was the home of the greatest modern philosophers who took reasoning to a higher level than ever before. Ironically, it was one of those very rational Germans, Nitsche, who argued that religion wasn’t needed, that God was “dead”, and wrote the book “Beyond Good and Evil”. This philosophy that man’s rationality had made religion unnecessary was a key pillar of Hitler’s National Socialist political dogma and led inexorably to the slaughter of millions more and the great crime that was the Holocaust.
I would argue that all modern man’s vaunted “reason” has done for us is simply to make us more efficient killers while simultaneously removing any belief that we have to answer for these crimes on the other side of the grave. A VERY dangerous combination if you ask me.
But thank you for a very challenging conversation on the topic. And I am not being sarcastic when I say that.
Click to expand...


You omit the fact that many millions have been killed IN THE NAME of religion. So don't pretend that religion somehow is a cure all for man's ability to be evil. Like anything, it can be abused.
 
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#310
#310
turbovol said:
The origins of ethical conduct date back to the ancient Greeks, Chinese (Confucious), etc.

www.britannica.com

History of ethics | Ancient Greece, Scholasticism, Renaissance, British and Continental Traditions, & Contemporary Ethics

History of ethics, the philosophical discipline concerned with what is morally good or bad and what is morally right or wrong.
www.britannica.com www.britannica.com
Click to expand...

The ethics (law) recorded in the Old Testament are at least 4000 years old. They predate Confucius* and the Greeks by thousands of years. They were oral traditions passed down long before written records were even invented and recorded on clay tablets, dried animal skins, papyrus etc.
 
#312
#312
lawgator1 said:
You omit the fact that many millions have been killed IN THE NAME of religion. So don't pretend that religion somehow is a cure all for man's ability to be evil. Like anything, it can be abused.
Click to expand...
I believe you have misunderstood me. I totally agree that man can screw anything up. The point was trying to make us that some sort of religion or belief in a higher power seems to be universal across all cultures and society and therefore must serve some necessary purpose.
All religion can do on its own is point out that there is a standard to which we should aspire. By itself, it is powerless to actually get us there.
Christianity was revolutionary in that is accepted the fact that we can never live up to the standards that the Supreme Being has set and that we need forgiveness and grace. And as long as it was a sincere belief held by a small group of individuals in society it did no one any harm. But once it became the State Religion of Rome, it became ripe for abuse as those in power saw its usefulness. Which is exactly the reason why most sane Christians agree that it should be kept apart from politics. I don’t mind my fellow Christians being involved in politics or holding political office; but government is not the proper tool for spreading belief. Politics is about power and power corrupts.
Jesus in his 33 years never once tried to enact any change in Government. He lived under a corrupt and cruel government but didn’t tell his followers to try and change it. He told them to change individual people. And I don’t think that advice is any less real today.
 
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#313
#313
marcusluvsvols said:
The ethics (law) recorded in the Old Testament are at least 4000 years old. They predate Confucius* and the Greeks by thousands of years. They were oral traditions passed down long before written records were even invented and recorded on clay tablets, dried animal skins, papyrus etc.
Click to expand...
I had the Exodus being a tittle later than 2000 BC, but I agree that the giving of the law was well over 1000 years before the golden age of Greek philosophy.
 
#314
#314
OrangeTsar said:
Interesting assertion. But if that were the case, then wouldn’t we think that with an increase in reasoning that morality would simultaneously improve? Yet modern society, built on rationality has strangely in the past 100 years given us history’s most brutal and deadly societies. Between Mao’s China, Stalin’s Soviet Union and the Killing Fields of the Khmer Rouge, we probably saw over 100 millions slaughtered or purposely starved.
And even more telling, Germany, probably the country known for the best reasoning, gave us the Third Reich. It was the home of the greatest modern philosophers who took reasoning to a higher level than ever before. Ironically, it was one of those very rational Germans, Nitsche, who argued that religion wasn’t needed, that God was “dead”, and wrote the book “Beyond Good and Evil”. This philosophy that man’s rationality had made religion unnecessary was a key pillar of Hitler’s National Socialist political dogma and led inexorably to the slaughter of millions more and the great crime that was the Holocaust.
I would argue that all modern man’s vaunted “reason” has done for us is simply to make us more efficient killers while simultaneously removing any belief that we have to answer for these crimes on the other side of the grave. A VERY dangerous combination if you ask me.
But thank you for a very challenging conversation on the topic. And I am not being sarcastic when I say that.
Click to expand...
I don't know how much the average person's reasoning really increased over the ages, while the capacity of states for war certainly did.
It's always struck me how probably the most civilized Western country (don't tell the French) turned so quickly into the most barbaric. I suppose that shows how fragile our institutions can be.
Europe from the dark ages until the early 20th century was very Christian and very bloody. It's been relatively peaceful post WWII with a much less religious population. How do we reconcile that? Were the kings and queens of olden days just giving lip service to Christianity while using it as cover for their earthly ambitions?
 
#315
#315
WoodsmanVol said:
Certain types of crimes would. But history shows in America at least, bias fueled crimes would not decrease, a bit rather, increase. Self-righteousness triggers/justifies social class and racial attacks. If took a hard look at American history, you'd see this is true. Pogo was right.
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Yep. It is indeed fun to bounce up and down on a springy stick.
 
#316
#316
whodeycin85 said:
Yes but whose home..your family may adhere strictly to Christian values..my family may be strictly Qur'an...is it then ok to rape you wife because my idea of decency says it ok?? That's the issue who's to stay who is right??
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Values/morals start at home regardless of religion. We are a nation of laws, regardless of religion. You leave the house and your values/morals there as well the rest takes care of itself.
 
#317
#317
Majors said:
Values/morals start at home regardless of religion. We are a nation of laws, regardless of religion. You leave the house and your values/morals there as well the rest takes care of itself.
Click to expand...
As an American, it shames me to say, we were never a nation of laws. We had great stuff printed, but in practice, American constantly contradicted what was written. Historic and ongoing treatment of Native Americans, Chinese Americans, African-Americans, Jewish-Americans, women, and for quite a while, Irish-Americans is the witness of the lie. Even now, if your color is wrong, or even your clothes are wrong, you can be detained arrested, or literally run off because of that. The sheer number of times so-called law enforcement have killed browns (others too at times) and gotten away with it under some bamboozling excuse is another witness. Even when you're sitting inside your own home watching TV, or on your porch reading a book, or even walking down the street with a broom you just purchased. We were never a nation of laws. Bigotry made sure of that.
 
#318
#318
LouderVol said:
I am not against religion. I am against the government pushing religion. any religion.

I think the changes need to go back further than just holding people accountable for their actions. or in reality we need to hold people accountable for more of their actions.

I think a lot of the decay in this nation is brought on by all the welfare in the nation. too many people have a free ride, never learn the value of earning something, are never held responsible because there is some security net, and the amount of welfare has raised the expectation of what is reasonable beyond what it is.

and in my world that means people are going to suffer. they are going to have to learn that if they don't work, they don't eat. which will cause instability, but it will right itself over time. we have dug ourselves too deep to get out of this clean.
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Someone else may have already brought this up but the bolded part doesn’t just apply to people on welfare. This has become rampant everywhere. I’ve not seen any stats to back it up but it very much feels like the percentage of adults living with their parents has skyrocketed. I don’t know if 25-year-olds has changed that much (likely has but not to the degree of older adults) but I would guess 30+-year-olds is a much higher percentage now. I hear people in the 25-35 range talk about “adulting” and patting themselves on the back for things like getting to work on time. It’s crazy! I even had one 25yo tell me that him getting to work on time consistently put him ahead of 75% of people his age. Sadly, I don’t think he was wrong. It seems like people in that age range want to pretend to be an adult but not be one, at least not yet. I’m guessing that comes from a lack of consequences from the parents but maybe there’s more to it. Of course not everyone falls into these buckets but it seems like it’s grown a good bit and I think the tail will swing back around when that generation is in charge of corporate America and most are underdeveloped compared to previous generations.
 
#319
#319
lawgator1 said:
You omit the fact that many millions have been killed IN THE NAME of religion. So don't pretend that religion somehow is a cure all for man's ability to be evil. Like anything, it can be abused.
Click to expand...

Yep just like government
 
#325
#325
turbovol said:
Every three days, there's another story like this....Christian faith leaders are often sexual predators. Church is
obviously a wonderful place to groom....

I don't understand it when this guy surely was raised with the Ten Commandments hanging over his bed.

Click to expand...

Just because there have been some terrible people in Christian leadership roles doesn’t mean that “faith leaders are often sexual predators” and you know that but you’re just stirring the pot as usual.
 
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