The Future Right-Wingers Want....

[volbound1700]

"Adjacent"

It was a lighthearted attempt to point out that he had a significant effect, namely the bor. You also quote Adams yet he wasn't there either.

To me one of the most telling aspects is how often God and religion are mentioned in the doc.

I think the Convention chose the words carefully. Jefferson was often an out-tier at times but is cited today because he most fits with the progressive agenda (even then, they cite him out of context 70-80% of the time). Keep in mind that Jefferson was the only Cabinet member that George Washington had to fire. George Washington held the most respect/sway of any Founding Father at the time but is rarely quoted today.

Go read the letter from Jefferson that has the phrase (I doubt you have ever read it). My biggest issue with most modern Americans is they shout opinions without actually doing the research on the subject matter.

The key issue is that the local governments were supposed to manage these items, not Washington D.C. Now the 14th Amendment changed that to a degree and it was partially built out of the fact that local governments often served as means to oppress individuals they didn't like.

The fact is that no one had any issues with religion in schools until the 1960s when the Supreme Court, basically, made up law. There is a reason the current Supreme Court is moving away from a lot of their rulings. They were problematic from the start.

I think our government is a total mess because we didn't follow the original intent which was to let local governments decide this issue. IMO, the issue of whether the Ten Commandments should be in school or not should be decided by local School Boards, not State Legislatures or Congress.

As Americans, if we want true freedom (as was intended), we should push for less Government Control at the Federal and even State levels and push for more control in our Counties and Cities. We can meet these people (often face-to-face), post on their Facebook pages, etc. We have more management/control.

The Federal Government should be more about diplomacy, military, managing the post office (that is a Constitutional Power), interstate commerce (customs/immigration), and high-level management. Not controlling every aspect of our life.

 

[volbound1700]

@GroverCleveland

Nice! For some reason, the reply didn't work right.

 

[McDad]

I think the Convention chose the words carefully. Jefferson was often an out-tier at times but is cited today because he most fits with the progressive agenda (even then, they cite him out of context 70-80% of the time). Keep in mind that Jefferson was the only Cabinet member that George Washington had to fire. George Washington held the most respect/sway of any Founding Father at the time but is rarely quoted today.

Go read the letter from Jefferson that has the phrase (I doubt you have ever read it). My biggest issue with most modern Americans is they shout opinions without actually doing the research on the subject matter.

The key issue is that the local governments were supposed to manage these items, not Washington D.C. Now the 14th Amendment changed that to a degree and it was partially built out of the fact that local governments often served as means to oppress individuals they didn't like.

The fact is that no one had any issues with religion in schools until the 1960s when the Supreme Court, basically, made up law. There is a reason the current Supreme Court is moving away from a lot of their rulings. They were problematic from the start.

I think our government is a total mess because we didn't follow the original intent which was to let local governments decide this issue. IMO, the issue of whether the Ten Commandments should be in school or not should be decided by local School Boards, not State Legislatures or Congress.

As Americans, if we want true freedom (as was intended), we should push for less Government Control at the Federal and even State levels and push for more control in our Counties and Cities. We can meet these people (often face-to-face), post on their Facebook pages, etc. We have more management/control.

The Federal Government should be more about diplomacy, military, managing the post office (that is a Constitutional Power), interstate commerce (customs/immigration), and high-level management. Not controlling every aspect of our life.

So much good in this post.

Last two paragraphs are especially profound.

 

[hog88]

Perhaps the Constitution should be taught in schools. Maybe our country would have a more secure future if Americans knew that like they know the Ten Cs.

100% agree with this.

 

[GroverCleveland]

Everson v Bd of Education. 1947.

The notion that a state can promote one religion is abhorrent to every concept of liberty on which this country was founded.

Interesting take considering that almost all the colonies and then states has laws on their books until the early 1800s that pretty well promoted the dominant religions of their region. These were repealed, but there was nothing in the Constitution dealing with all these "abhorrent" state laws you speak of. None of the guys at the convention writing the Constitution seemed to recall these laws from their own home states since they were so abhorrent. Odd.

In fact, it seem no one really noticed until 1947 according to your post. Dang. 170 years of pure horror perpetrated on the population.

I agree with the proposition of no establishment of religion, but this statement of yours is silly.

 

[Unconditional Surrender]

Our civilization was built on those "backwards" rules.

 

[volgr]

I think the Convention chose the words carefully. Jefferson was often an out-tier at times but is cited today because he most fits with the progressive agenda (even then, they cite him out of context 70-80% of the time). Keep in mind that Jefferson was the only Cabinet member that George Washington had to fire. George Washington held the most respect/sway of any Founding Father at the time but is rarely quoted today.

Go read the letter from Jefferson that has the phrase (I doubt you have ever read it). My biggest issue with most modern Americans is they shout opinions without actually doing the research on the subject matter.

The key issue is that the local governments were supposed to manage these items, not Washington D.C. Now the 14th Amendment changed that to a degree and it was partially built out of the fact that local governments often served as means to oppress individuals they didn't like.

The fact is that no one had any issues with religion in schools until the 1960s when the Supreme Court, basically, made up law. There is a reason the current Supreme Court is moving away from a lot of their rulings. They were problematic from the start.

I think our government is a total mess because we didn't follow the original intent which was to let local governments decide this issue. IMO, the issue of whether the Ten Commandments should be in school or not should be decided by local School Boards, not State Legislatures or Congress.

As Americans, if we want true freedom (as was intended), we should push for less Government Control at the Federal and even State levels and push for more control in our Counties and Cities. We can meet these people (often face-to-face), post on their Facebook pages, etc. We have more management/control.

The Federal Government should be more about diplomacy, military, managing the post office (that is a Constitutional Power), interstate commerce (customs/immigration), and high-level management. Not controlling every aspect of our life.

Pretty much spot on and good job pointing out the perverse incorporation doctrine through the 14th Amendment (which many on this board do not understand).

Why do people in 49 other States care if LA puts the 10C's up in every school? It has no bearing on their life. Same for States who want to enact more draconian gun laws. How does that impact people in the 49 other States? Don't like California's draconian gun laws? Don't go there.

 

[McDad]

100% agree with this.

Naturally. You are wise and have an exemplary capacity for perspicacity.

 

[GroverCleveland]

I think the Convention chose the words carefully. Jefferson was often an out-tier at times but is cited today because he most fits with the progressive agenda (even then, they cite him out of context 70-80% of the time). Keep in mind that Jefferson was the only Cabinet member that George Washington had to fire. George Washington held the most respect/sway of any Founding Father at the time but is rarely quoted today.

Go read the letter from Jefferson that has the phrase (I doubt you have ever read it). My biggest issue with most modern Americans is they shout opinions without actually doing the research on the subject matter.

The key issue is that the local governments were supposed to manage these items, not Washington D.C. Now the 14th Amendment changed that to a degree and it was partially built out of the fact that local governments often served as means to oppress individuals they didn't like.

The fact is that no one had any issues with religion in schools until the 1960s when the Supreme Court, basically, made up law. There is a reason the current Supreme Court is moving away from a lot of their rulings. They were problematic from the start.

I think our government is a total mess because we didn't follow the original intent which was to let local governments decide this issue. IMO, the issue of whether the Ten Commandments should be in school or not should be decided by local School Boards, not State Legislatures or Congress.

As Americans, if we want true freedom (as was intended), we should push for less Government Control at the Federal and even State levels and push for more control in our Counties and Cities. We can meet these people (often face-to-face), post on their Facebook pages, etc. We have more management/control.

The Federal Government should be more about diplomacy, military, managing the post office (that is a Constitutional Power), interstate commerce (customs/immigration), and high-level management. Not controlling every aspect of our life.

Well done.

 

[McDad]

Btw, @utvolpj you took the "L" and I got the "W" today. The whole board saw it.

 

[hog88]

Naturally. You are wise and have an exemplary capacity for perspicacity.

Had to look that word up.

 

[volbound1700]

Interesting take considering that almost all the colonies and then states has laws on their books until the early 1800s that pretty well promoted the dominant religions of their region. These were repealed, but there was nothing in the Constitution dealing with all these "abhorrent" state laws you speak of. None of the guys at the convention writing the Constitution seemed to recall these laws from their own home states since they were so abhorrent. Odd.

In fact, it seem no one really noticed until 1947 according to your post. Dang. 170 years of pure horror perpetrated on the population.

I agree with the proposition of no establishment of religion, but this statement of yours is silly.

I don't remember the exact year or name of the case but there was a case in the 1920s or 1930s that first reference the "Separation of Church and State" comment that started all of this. The case was about a situation where school buses used to take kids to Catholic Schools as well as the Public Schools and someone sued over that. The Supreme Court cited Separation of Church and State as their reasoning for why the School Buses shouldn't take kids to parochial schools and that started the can of worms. It was a 5-4 decision like most of them.

 

[McDad]

Pretty much spot on and good job pointing out the perverse incorporation doctrine through the 14th Amendment (which many on this board do not understand).

Why do people in 49 other States care if LA puts the 10C's up in every school? It has no bearing on their life. Same for States who want to enact more draconian gun laws. How does that impact people in the 49 other States? Don't like California's draconian gun laws? Don't go there.

I agree with the sentiment. But Hog is right about the BoR wrt people and states.

 

[McDad]

Had to look that word up.

I thought "wise" might be challenging for you, but decided to use it anyway.

 

[LouderVol]

Wrong at every level. What's next? If you don't read a Bible verse you get a lower grade?

I am assuming this is more grade school level and below, certainly doesn't make sense to post the 10 Commandments in a specialized classroom that has nothing to do with a general education.

at first I was very against this but someone raised a very interesting point, does the Ten Commandments equal a religion? and what would the equal be, would posting some 10 laws of Mohammed be equally ok? Would some 10 Budhists mantras be ok? What if a teacher posted it up along with these other examples, and any other requested religious texts of similar length/quantity, would people still feel the same, pro or con?

also there are plenty of ways to comply but to not push religion.

The teachers could just print it out in microscopic script, post it behind a piece of furniture and never mention its existence, and be in compliance.

heck a sassy, non Christian, teacher could post the Ten Commandments in a readable location and use it to call out hypocrisy in Christians. or just make fun of it, or the whole story. you have a "political science" type class I would use the Ten Commandments to show how bad Trump was, have the kids going home and asking mom and dad about why they support a guy who has broken most of the commandments.

heck if a teacher posted it in an original language, and one of the supporters for this bill saw it, they would probably get offended seeing some foreign language up in a class room and demand it be taken down. plenty of ways for the anti-crowd to use compliance to hang the supporters with this outside of the Constitutional issues.

my class got my private Catholic school to ban reading the bible because we were required to read it, and we just used that requirement to go through and find all the problematic text in it. every case of incest, every case of whoring, no women teachers, etc etc.

if I was a teacher there and against it I would use malicious compliance to get these guys to reverse gears and require removing the ten commandments from schools after it got used in a counterproductive manner.

as someone who went to a school where there was some sort of religious iconography, text, message, etc in every class room, I wouldn't worry about this indoctrinating anyone; and I would warn the supporters about the unintended consequences.

 

[Unconditional Surrender]

If you are a Christian, you don't have to lightfoot around apologizing. Christianity is the cause of every blessing we have. It established common law, birthed enlightenment science, established human rights, etc. If you think I am exaggerating, go back and read about Roman culture, the one Christ toppled.

Read The Air we Breathe by Glen Scrivener or Dominion by Tom Holland. (Holland is a secular historian)

We have forgotten our roots. Read old books (or the new ones I just posted!) Remember! Take your cues from the democracy of the dead, whose heritage we inherited and are now wrecking. Assume the center. History belongs to the Lord.

 

[McDad]

I don't remember the exact year or name of the case but there was a case in the 1920s or 1930s that first reference the "Separation of Church and State" comment that started all of this. The case was about a situation where school buses used to take kids to Catholic Schools as well as the Public Schools and someone sued over that. The Supreme Court cited Separation of Church and State as their reasoning for why the School Buses shouldn't take kids to parochial schools and that started the can of worms. It was a 5-4 decision like most of them.

I didn't know that.

 

[hog88]

If you are a Christian, you don't have to lightfoot around apologizing. Christianity is the cause of every blessing we have. It established common law, birthed enlightenment science, established human rights, etc. If you think I am exaggerating, go back and read about Roman culture, the one Christ toppled.

Read The Air we Breathe by Glen Scrivener or Dominion by Tom Holland. (Holland is a secular historian)

We have forgotten our roots. Read old books (or the new ones I just posted!) Remember! Take your cues from the democracy of the dead, whose heritage we inherited and are now wrecking. Assume the center. History belongs to the Lord.

Ehh, the Muslims were far more advanced in math and science than European Christians and Rome didn't fall until after converting.

Now, with that being said all of that was due to the men using Christianity as a means of controlling the people and enriching themselves off of them.

 

[volgr]

I agree with the sentiment. But Hog is right about the BoR wrt people and states.

I have debated this with Hog. He is wrong in the sense the framers did not intend for the BoR to apply to States. This is easily verifiable by reading Madison's Notes on the Constitutional Convention, State ratification debates and the writings by Framers at the time. The BoR's was to restrict the Federal Govt only, not States (which is why States have their own BoR's). It was later, under the perverse use of the 14th Amendment that the incorporation doctrine was created and basically wiped out the Framer's intent and birthed a new docrtine where States were now restricted by the BoR's, same as the Feds.

 

[McDad]

would posting some 10 laws of Mohammed be equally ok? Would some 10 Budhists mantras be ok? What if a teacher posted it up along with these other examples, and any other requested religious texts of similar length/quantity, would people still feel the same, pro or con?

Yes. All of that would be ok for me. Not familiar with those but I would assume they would be general guidelines on how to treat others properly and build some internal morality.

 

[whodeycin85]

When we talk about teaching respect of differing walks of life in schools... Republicans shriek schools should stick solely to educational purpose of math, science, reading, english etc. When we talk of putting religion in school... Republicans think that is appropriate. It's comical.

Who has been against different walks of life..all has been against teaching children about the sexual habits of adults...I'm sorry my child doesn't need to know about anal and BJs in elementary school ..

 

[Unconditional Surrender]

Ehh, the Muslims were far more advanced in math and science than European Christians and Rome didn't fall until after converting.

Now, with that being said all of that was due to the men using Christianity as a means of controlling the people and enriching themselves off of them.

Islam does not believe in natural law. You have to believe in an intelligible universe governed by these laws to get very far in science. In Islam, every action is directly caused by God. Of course Rome didn't fall until converting. That's how Christ conquered it.

 

[utvolpj]

I think the Convention chose the words carefully. Jefferson was often an out-tier at times but is cited today because he most fits with the progressive agenda (even then, they cite him out of context 70-80% of the time). Keep in mind that Jefferson was the only Cabinet member that George Washington had to fire. George Washington held the most respect/sway of any Founding Father at the time but is rarely quoted today.

Go read the letter from Jefferson that has the phrase (I doubt you have ever read it). My biggest issue with most modern Americans is they shout opinions without actually doing the research on the subject matter.

I rarely see TJ cited by modern progressives. Any examples? Most are trying to cancel him at this point. If you say classic liberals then you may have more of a point. Was Locke also a progressive?

I've read what I'm discussing as well as many others on the subject. You seem to use a very superficial understanding of these events and ideas to make your points. The gotcha attempt around the convention is an example.

 

[volbound1700]

Ehh, the Muslims were far more advanced in math and science than European Christians and Rome didn't fall until after converting.

Now, with that being said all of that was due to the men using Christianity as a means of controlling the people and enriching themselves off of them.

Again this is another modern lie. The Muslims were advanced because of Byzantine Christians that lived in their society. Look it up. A lot of the early scholars in the Arabic Caliphate where Christians from the Byzantine Empire. Once the Christians died off, they entered a decline.

Frankly, I don't think it was necessarily tied to religion but to the scholars of Antiquity. Once the Byzantines were blown up, a lot of the knowledge from antiquity was lost (although Byzantine Empire was in decline across the board in that era as well).

Similar situation with the Sassanid Persians and their Empire that was conquered by the Arabs. Once the early generations died off, the Islamic Caliphates fell into decline (they also had religious divisions that caused it which lead to the Sunni/Shiite split).

 

[McDad]

I have debated this with Hog. He is wrong in the sense the framers did not intend for the BoR to apply to States. This is easily verifiable by reading Madison's Notes on the Constitutional Convention, State ratification debates and the writings by Framers at the time. The BoR's was to restrict the Federal Govt only, not States (which is why States have their own BoR's). It was later, under the perverse use of the 14th Amendment that the incorporation doctrine was created and basically wiped out the Framer's intent and birthed a new docrtine where States were now restricted by the BoR's, same as the Feds.

Seems legit to me.

Why you disagree, @hog88 ?