The Masters Tournament

#1,054
#1,054
volfanbill said:
Based off the golf thread you seem to know the game quite well. When he specifically says he went back two yards and took some off of it to make sure it didn't happen again, how is that not done purposefully?

I don't think I'd DQ myself either, but it would be a brilliant PR move by him
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volfanbill said:
All the top players get interviewed and there's no such thing as a two club length rule here. It is specifically as close as possible. A. That clearly didn't happen, b. He clearly dropped where he did to help himself based on his own words. He hosed himself. Had he just said I took my drop, took a little off of it and saved bogey, we wouldn't be talking right now.
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Had you listened to the conversation taking place during this shot, you would have heard the announcers talking about being two club lengths from the initial spot. It may even have been he and his caddie. I didn't think a whole lot about it at the time because I thought it was 2 club lengths also. Either way, he intentionally dropped where he did because he was under the impression that two club lengths was what he was allowed. Even the rules committee were fine with where he dropped it before he signed his card. The ONLY reason that this was brought back up was because of the TV interview and a fan seeing this on TV and calling it in. So, you are saying because he is a top player, his game should be more closely watched than anyone else? I disagree.

Edit: I would be willing to bet that you didn't know the exact wording of the rule prior to all the BS either. If you did, you should be working for the PGA doing tournament rules interpretations. Clearly, even the PGA was uncertain about the rule.
 
#1,055
#1,055
82_VOL_83 said:
Had you listened to the conversation taking place during this shot, you would have heard the announcers talking about being two club lengths from the initial spot. It may even have been he and his caddie. I didn't think a whole lot about it at the time because I thought it was 2 club lengths also. Either way, he intentionally dropped where he did because he was under the impression that two club lengths was what he was allowed. Even the rules committee were fine with where he dropped it before he signed his card. The ONLY reason that this was brought back up was because of the TV interview and a fan seeing this on TV and calling it in. So, you are saying because he is a top player, his game should be more closely watched than anyone else? I disagree.

Edit: I would be willing to bet that you didn't know the exact wording of the rule prior to all the BS either. If you did, you should be working for the PGA doing tournament rules interpretations. Clearly, even the PGA was uncertain about the rule.
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I know you can't take a club length or more to make your drop from landing in a yellow hazard and there's no way PGA pros don't know that. Tiger took the drop because as he even said, it would allow him to not hit the pin again. It's not that hard of a rule and it's a rule that gets visited in PGA tournaments every year.

The PGA wasn't uncertain about anything. Just because Jim Nantz or David Feherty was doesn't mean the PGA is. They deemed he took the drop from very close to the same spot, only to later learn he purposely went back to give himself an (unfair) advantage.
 
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#1,056
#1,056
GAVol said:
I think the ruling is stupid, but I really don't get why he wasn't DQ'd. According to what happened, he has now signed an incorrect scorecard.
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Because during the round, it was deemed a correct drop. Only after he said that he dropped it back "a couple of yards" (looked like about 4 feet) did they go back a look at it and assess a penalty. The reason he wasn't DQ'd was a rule put in in 12' that says that if you don't knowingly sign an incorrect card that it isn't an automatic DQ.

Edit: Rule 33-7 doesn't DQ him.
 
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#1,057
#1,057
volfanbill said:
I know you can't take a club length or more to make your drop from landing in a yellow hazard and there's no way PGA pros don't know that. Tiger took the drop because as he even said, it would allow him to not hit the pin again. It's not that hard of a rule and it's a rule that gets visited in PGA tournaments every year.

The PGA wasn't uncertain about anything. Just because Jim Nantz or David Feherty was doesn't mean the PGA is.
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And that is where you are wrong. The PGA stated that the drop was correct by the end of the round. And, in fact, the Masters Committee Chairman, Fred Ridley, is admitting that the rule is completely vague and is saying that after watching the drop he said that he felt that Tiger completely complied with the rule and INTENDED to comply with the rule. ONLY AFTER he said something in an interview, did they go back and look at it. Kinda like going back and making a holding call after the game is over.......or maybe taking a touchdown catch away after the game that wasn't one.
 
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#1,058
#1,058
82_VOL_83 said:
Because during the round, it was deemed a correct drop. Only after he said that he dropped it back "a couple of yards" (looked like about 4 feet) did they go back a look at it and assess a penalty. The reason he wasn't DQ'd was a rule put in in 12' that says that if you don't knowingly sign an incorrect card that it isn't an automatic DQ.
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according to the rule change it's when a player could not possibly know he breached a rule. I still maintain there's no way Tiger didn't know he was unfairly giving himself an advantage. The three ways to drop from a yellow hazard are very well known and used every day on the golf course. It's nothing new to Tour players.
 
#1,059
#1,059
82_VOL_83 said:
And that is where you are wrong. The PGA stated that the drop was correct by the end of the round. And, in fact, the Masters Committee Chairman, Fred Ridley, is admitting that the rule is completely vague and is saying that after watching the drop he said that he felt that Tiger completely complied with the rule and INTENDED to comply with the rule. ONLY AFTER he said something in an interview, did they go back and look at it. Kinda like going back and making a holding call after the game is over.......OR MAYBE TAKING AWAY A TOUCHDOWN CATCH THAT WASN'T ONE AFTER THE GAME.
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and you're still not using all the facts. When the PGA learned that Tiger went backwards purposely for his own advantage, he was definitely not in compliance with the rules. From a simple video replay it doesn't look like he's that far off the original spot. But when all the facts were present, they had to make their ruling. I'm not wrong and neither is the PGA in this situation. The PGA always has been able to go back and alter a decision when new facts are introduced. This is nothing new for them. It's just new for it to be someone like Tiger.
 
#1,060
#1,060
Hate to hit and run, but I hope Tiger shoots 62 today, and shoves it up that smug little bastard Chamblees jealous a$$. Glad I found this forum, I didn't know there were other Golf junkies on VN. :good!: I also know that some of you other rules nuts will disagree with me, but that is my opinion.
 
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#1,064
#1,064
BigOrangeWhitey said:
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They changed it to no DQ & there should be a penalty for doing it or it would happen more frequently.

The ruled changed in 2011:
"This revision to Decision 33-7/4.5 addresses the situation where a player is not aware he has breached a Rule because of facts that he did not know and could not reasonably have discovered prior to returning his score card. Under this revised decision and at the discretion of the Committee, the player still receives the penalty associated with the breach of the underlying Rule, but is not disqualified"
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I love this new rule, I think all these old jackasses like Norman, Chamblee and Faldo are just pissed off it didn't exist when they were playing.
 
#1,065
#1,065
volfanbill said:
and you're still not using all the facts. When the PGA learned that Tiger went backwards purposely for his own advantage, he was definitely not in compliance with the rules. From a simple video replay it doesn't look like he's that far off the original spot. But when all the facts were present, they had to make their ruling. I'm not wrong and neither is the PGA in this situation. The PGA always has been able to go back and alter a decision when new facts are introduced. This is nothing new for them. It's just new for it to be someone like Tiger.
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1. Tiger took his drop and it was reviewed and it was APPROVED by the rules committee.
2. Tiger signed his card with the APPROVAL of the rules committee.
3. Whether the drop was correct or not (obviously not in hindsight), he examined each one of the 3 parts of the rule by walking them down on the course and then made his choice.
4. ONLY AFTER HE SAID IN AN INTERVIEW THAT HE DROPPED IT BEHIND (i.e. FURTHER AWAY) HIS ORIGINAL SPOT did the rules committee do anything.
5. Rule 33-7 says that if a player signs what is deemed a legal card and then later is found to have signed an incorrect card it is a stroke penalty and not a DQ.

Those are the facts. The actuality is that the rules committee would NEVER have reviewed it had he not been interviewed and admitted what he did. One thing I can tell you, Tiger is smart enough not to make a point of mentioning an intentional rules violation had he known it was a violation.

By the way, since you are a former PGA tour player or rules committee guy or whatever, what distance constitutes "as closely as possible"? Is he supposed to drop it in the divot? That would be kinda stupid wouldn't it?
 
#1,067
#1,067
BigOrangeWhitey said:
[/B]
They changed it to no DQ & there should be a penalty for doing it or it would happen more frequently.

The ruled changed in 2011:
"This revision to Decision 33-7/4.5 addresses the situation where a player is not aware he has breached a Rule because of facts that he did not know and could not reasonably have discovered prior to returning his score card. Under this revised decision and at the discretion of the Committee, the player still receives the penalty associated with the breach of the underlying Rule, but is not disqualified"
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Sorry, I was under the impression it changed in 2011 but was put into effect for the 2012 tour.
 
#1,070
#1,070
82_VOL_83 said:
1. Tiger took his drop and it was reviewed and it was APPROVED by the rules committee.
2. Tiger signed his card with the APPROVAL of the rules committee.
3. Whether the drop was correct or not (obviously not in hindsight), he examined each one of the 3 parts of the rule by walking them down on the course and then made his choice.
4. ONLY AFTER HE SAID IN AN INTERVIEW THAT HE DROPPED IT BEHIND (i.e. FURTHER AWAY) HIS ORIGINAL SPOT did the rules committee do anything.
5. Rule 33-7 says that if a player signs what is deemed a legal card and then later is found to have signed an incorrect card it is a stroke penalty and not a DQ.

Those are the facts. The actuality is that the rules committee would NEVER have reviewed it had he not been interviewed and admitted what he did. One thing I can tell you, Tiger is smart enough not to make a point of mentioning an intentional rules violation had he known it was a violation.

By the way, since you are a former PGA tour player or rules committee guy or whatever, what distance constitutes "as closely as possible"? Is he supposed to drop it in the divot? That would be kinda stupid wouldn't it?
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He still signed an incorrect score card. It happens all the time with the APPROVAL (see I can use all caps too!) of the rules committee. He outed himself. He admitted to moving back two yards to give himself an advantage into the hole. That's why we're here. Any golfer knows right there that giving yourself an unfair advantage is against the rules. The only way he could have take the ball backwards was to go line of sight with where the ball went into the hazard at. He could have gone 2,301 yards back to hit by taking that drop option had he wanted to. But he didn't. He chose to hit from the spot he had previously hit from. That's how the rule is drawn up. Not two yards back and slightly to the left like he chose. From where you previously hit from. The only exception is on the tee box, which clearly doesn't apply here. When he admitted to the world he did that on purpose, the rules committee had no choice.

As for the last part of your question, there is no clear answer and it doesn't have to be in the divot. But when video tape clearly shows how much space he had between divots, it's obvious he didn't follow the intent of the rule by dropping "as closely as possible." You seriously can't try and deny that.

The rules committee looked at a quick videotape and deemed it ok. Any rules official probably would have too, from a video. I doubt any PGA Tour Rules Officials would have allowed it in person though. Then Tiger screwed himself up. He clearly talked about giving himself the easier shot. That's all on him. The PGA has long gone back and changed rulings after the round was over. You can't compare to the NFL or MLB in that aspect. It's what the PGA does, has done and will continue to do for the foreseeable future.
 
#1,071
#1,071
Have you guys ever seen a guy get so hosed, on what otherwise would have been a really good to great shot? Amounted to triple bogey instead of a birdie.
 
#1,072
#1,072
Got to give Faldo credit, at least he is saying he was wrong earlier. Bet you don't here that little no talent bum Chamblee say that.
 
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