The military purge stepping up

#256
#256
WBO said:
That's a fair statement.

But in the civilian world (and never before in our history has this happened, but ir did in Iraq/Afghanistan) you don't have to go into 1 year combat deployments 5-6 times over ten years. They should be compensated for that.

When I was at UT as an undergrad in the mid-70's, a professor in one of our accounting classes told us that the two highest paid men at the Alcoa aluminum complex in Alcoa were not the plan managers but two men, both black, who were making $125k a year for working in a single area where the temps averaged 120 degrees. They were told that they would die in their 50's from the physical stress, but it was worth it to them to be able to make that kind of money for their families.

My point is the civilian world would pay someone taking combat risks much more than the government does.
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I was watching this documentary awhile back talking about private overseas security. A former British soldier explained how he could make almost 200K a year doing private security. Which was of course much better than what the military in Great Britain could pay him.
 
#258
#258
DonjoVol said:
Yet you and nobody else can seem to prove me wrong. If I'm wrong then you have a chance to prove it "staff member".
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You made the claim! You should be able to back it up. You're asking everyone else to prove a negative which isn't how it works. You've provided nothing to prove wrong which is very convenient
 
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#259
#259
utvolpj said:
You made the claim! You should be able to back it up. You're asking everyone else to prove a negative which isn't how it works. You've provided nothing to prove wrong which is very convenient
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For a second there I thought we were talking about the 1/6 committee.
 
#261
#261
utvolpj said:
You made the claim! You should be able to back it up. You're asking everyone else to prove a negative which isn't how it works. You've provided nothing to prove wrong which is very convenient
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There's plenty of information out there on the topic as well as stories from veterans. It's not hard at all for you to look this up. Plus MOST veterans I know are working in fields totally different than what they worked in and gained experience while they were in the military.

Plus you mentioned yourself passing over someone with 20 years experience. I find it hard to believe that person didn't have the necessary qualifications for that position or another one in your company. Sounds like you are stuck in your old ways and have certain stereotypes about veterans.
 
#262
#262
DonjoVol said:
How was he not a good "fit"? More than likely you are looking for someone who is exactly like the previous person in that position. Unless it's a new position then you are looking for someone like yourself.

There are multiple examples of this occurring and has been going on for years. Plus only 7% of the population are veterans. Which means even less are available for the workforce due to many being retired. Then you take the discrimination many face in the job market on top of that. That sounds like a problem to me.
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I'm retired military here turned full cycle recruiter. So, don't give me this "exactly like myself" nonsense. Because straight up, I've got a keen eye for sizing up talent and I can tell you without a doubt, this person would not have been a good fit for the position. And a lot of military aren't good fits for the positions they apply for.

The biggest problem with veterans and retirees? The conditioning they receive while in the service to think that somehow they can step right out of uniform and into a project or program manager position or executive level because of their experience.

Now what about the experience someone in that company 10-20 years that started at the base level and earned their spurs? Does the military service trump that?

Not a chance in hell. Veterans are being conditioned to think they are immediately eligible for those higher level positions instead of taking an entry level position and working their way up quickly by proving their worth. As a talent sourcing recruiter, I don't know you. I don't know your work ethic. I don't know if you'll jump ship after six weeks. I don't know if you're a dick. So, why am I going to place you in a position of trusted authority in my company just because you handed me in a 214 with your resume?

Furthermore, I've seen it time and time again. Veterans, especially those retiring have a hard transition from the military way of life to the civilian side in the work force. They need that acclimation time that a manager position just won't provide. They do need that base level experience to decompress after 20+ years of hard service. I've seen more managers fail because they didn't get that time and had a hard time adapting rather than those who'd been in the work force for several months to years.

Now, if you want to argue how not hiring veterans is a crime, I'm ready to battle each and every argument you bring. But you best be on your game because I'm in that industry and I'm a veteran myself.
 
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#264
#264
DonjoVol said:
There's plenty of information out there on the topic as well as stories from veterans. It's not hard at all for you to look this up. Plus MOST veterans I know are working in fields totally different than what they worked in and gained experience while they were in the military.

Plus you mentioned yourself passing over someone with 20 years experience. I find it hard to believe that person didn't have the necessary qualifications for that position or another one in your company. Sounds like you are stuck in your old ways and have certain stereotypes about veterans.
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Then provide all that available information to back your claims. I have never seen it and know that my military friends with skills had zero issues finding employment.

I've never passed over someone with 20yrs experience. You're confused
 
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#265
#265
Grand Vol said:
I'm retired military here turned full cycle recruiter. So, don't give me this "exactly like myself" nonsense. Because straight up, I've got a keen eye for sizing up talent and I can tell you without a doubt, this person would not have been a good fit for the position. And a lot of military aren't good fits for the positions they apply for.

The biggest problem with veterans and retirees? The conditioning they receive while in the service to think that somehow they can step right out of uniform and into a project or program manager position or executive level because of their experience.

Now what about the experience someone in that company 10-20 years that started at the base level and earned their spurs? Does the military service trump that?

Not a chance in hell. Veterans are being conditioned to think they are immediately eligible for those higher level positions instead of taking an entry level position and working their way up quickly by proving their worth. As a talent sourcing recruiter, I don't know you. I don't know your work ethic. I don't know if you'll jump ship after six weeks. I don't know if you're a dick. So, why am I going to place you in a position of trusted authority in my company just because you handed me in a 214 with your resume?

Furthermore, I've seen it time and time again. Veterans, especially those retiring have a hard transition from the military way of life to the civilian side in the work force. They need that acclimation time that a manager position just won't provide. They do need that base level experience to decompress after 20+ years of hard service. I've seen more managers fail because they didn't get that time and had a hard time adapting rather than those who'd been in the work force for several months to years.

Now, if you want to argue how not hiring veterans is a crime, I'm ready to battle each and every argument you bring. But you best be on your game because I'm in that industry and I'm a veteran myself.
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So you're honestly going to sit here and say that a veteran who has 10 plus years of management experience needs to just suck it up and take an entry level job? So I'm assuming you apply this same criteria to someone who has 10 plus years management experience in the civilian world as well? Explain why the veteran needs to just suck it up and take that entry level job. Especially when they have already proven their worth in that field.

You really aren't making yourself look good with some of those statements you just made.

Not all veterans I know are applying for "program manager" positions. They are applying for positions where they not only have the experience but also now have the education requirements. And still getting passed over. Something is clearly wrong with that.
 
#267
#267
DonjoVol said:
So you're honestly going to sit here and say that a veteran who has 10 plus years of management experience needs to just suck it up and take an entry level job? So I'm assuming you apply this same criteria to someone who has 10 plus years management experience in the civilian world as well? Explain why the veteran needs to just suck it up and take that entry level job. Especially when they have already proven their worth in that field.

You really aren't making yourself look good with some of those statements you just made.

Not all veterans I know are applying for "program manager" positions. They are applying for positions where they not only have the experience but also now have the education requirements. And still getting passed over. Something is clearly wrong with that.
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Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Declining a job because I offer you an assistant position doesn't mean I don't value your skills. It just means I want to see you in action before I make a bigger mistake.

And I don't give a rats ass how I look. My company is at stake here and not your windmill chasing dream that veterans somehow make better managers because of their service.

As for your last statement, there's this thing called better candidate that meets all the criteria including personality and character traits that make a good cultural fit for the company they apply for. Something you might have known if you actually were in the industry I'm in or a veteran like I am.
 
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#268
#268
TRUEFANVol said:
What are you, 12? Do you know how to use Google? Type in "ex-military at Fortune 500".
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You just had someone in this forum go on a long winded rant on how veterans need to suck it up and take "entry level" jobs. Even when they have the experience. I just hope that person is applying that same criteria to non veterans as well.

There are some success stories out there but there are also many veterans in fields I mentioned earlier that are having issues finding employment in those fields. IT, logistics, supply chain, administrative, human resources, etc. This is even with the necessary qualifications plus education many of them now have. Plus I'll believe actual veterans whose stories I've heard and know personally over random posters on Volnation.
 
#269
#269
Grand Vol said:
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Declining a job because I offer you an assistant position doesn't mean I don't value your skills. It just means I want to see you in action before I make a bigger mistake.

And I don't give a rats ass how I look. My company is at stake here and not your windmill chasing dream that veterans somehow make better managers because of their service.

As for your last statement, there's this thing called better candidate that meets all the criteria including personality and character traits that make a good cultural fit for the company they apply for. Something you might have known if you actually were in the industry I'm in or a veteran like I am.
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Do you apply the same standards to non veterans that you do to veterans? I sure hope so.
 
#270
#270
DonjoVol said:
You just had someone in this forum go on a long winded rant on how veterans need to suck it up and take "entry level" jobs. Even when they have the experience. I just hope that person is applying that same criteria to non veterans as well.

There are some success stories out there but there are also many veterans in fields I mentioned earlier that are having issues finding employment in those fields. IT, logistics, supply chain, administrative, human resources, etc. This is even with the necessary qualifications plus education many of them now have. Plus I'll believe actual veterans whose stories I've heard and know personally over random posters on Volnation.
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Why yes, I most certainly do.

Are you a veteran, sir? Are you a recruiter or in a talent sourcing position?

If the answer is "no" to either of these questions, you really don't need to be in this conversation...
 
#271
#271
Grand Vol said:
Why yes, I most certainly do.

Are you a veteran, sir? Are you a recruiter or in a talent sourcing position?

If the answer is "no" to either of these questions, you really don't need to be in this conversation...
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I am a veteran and have mentioned this before.

And I really hope you are applying the same standards to non veterans as you do veterans. I take it they need to suck it up and take those entry level jobs as well.

And by the way. Why shouldn't jobs in the military have equivalent pay to the same positions that are in the civilian world? You never answered that question.
 
#272
#272
DonjoVol said:
You just had someone in this forum go on a long winded rant on how veterans need to suck it up and take "entry level" jobs. Even when they have the experience. I just hope that person is applying that same criteria to non veterans as well.

There are some success stories out there but there are also many veterans in fields I mentioned earlier that are having issues finding employment in those fields. IT, logistics, supply chain, administrative, human resources, etc. This is even with the necessary qualifications plus education many of them now have. Plus I'll believe actual veterans whose stories I've heard and know personally over random posters on Volnation.
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If a veteran is having trouble finding a job in IT or supply chain (really wide industry) then that's on them. There are jobs all over the place in those and I know several who make an excellent living doing what the military trained them for
 
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#273
#273
utvolpj said:
If a veteran is having trouble finding a job in IT or supply chain (really wide industry) then that's on them. There are jobs all over the place in those and I know several who make an excellent living doing what the military trained them for
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Much of it can be put on the companies they are applying with. Many would rather have someone with a 4 year degree and no work experience than someone with 4 to 8 years actual work experience. And these are entry level positions I'm referring to.
 
#274
#274
WBO said:
That's a fair statement.

But in the civilian world (and never before in our history has this happened, but ir did in Iraq/Afghanistan) you don't have to go into 1 year combat deployments 5-6 times over ten years. They should be compensated for that.

When I was at UT as an undergrad in the mid-70's, a professor in one of our accounting classes told us that the two highest paid men at the Alcoa aluminum complex in Alcoa were not the plan managers but two men, both black, who were making $125k a year for working in a single area where the temps averaged 120 degrees. They were told that they would die in their 50's from the physical stress, but it was worth it to them to be able to make that kind of money for their families.

My point is the civilian world would pay someone taking combat risks much more than the government does.
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They are compensated for being in combat zones with extra pay and pay being excluded from taxes. That adds up.

A Guide to Combat (Imminent Danger) Pay in the United States Military
 
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#275
#275
DonjoVol said:
I am a veteran and have mentioned this before.

And I really hope you are applying the same standards to non veterans as you do veterans. I take it they need to suck it up and take those entry level jobs as well.

And by the way. Why shouldn't jobs in the military have equivalent pay to the same positions that are in the civilian world? You never answered that question.
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So, you're butthurt because you got passed over for a job and wear that 214 chip on your shoulder? I see now...

They are dozens of factors I take into account in the first two minutes of an interview. Being a veteran and in the field I'm looking for might get you a call, but it isn't going to get you a job unless I feel you will be a good fit. Can you get along with your manager, director or VP? Is your resume being embellished? That right there is a huge problem I've seen with veterans and luckily, I can call BS on the infantry E-4 that says they've got extensive leadership experience.

And no, there shouldn't be this "equal pay" nonsense because the pay gap isn't they bad. And furthermore, if you're only in the military for money, you don't need to be in the military.
 
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