The murder of Ahmaud Arbery

[GreyWolf1129]

I love the whole "stay local" push. I'm willing (as long as I can afford it) to pay double the cost to help small local business thrive and do well. I own Yoder Brothers Construction, LLC. We specialize in building high end residential homes on St. Simons and Sea Island. I actually live in Jesup but our office is located in Brunswick.

Yeah, I'm familiar. Good on you. What I just heard was "I can't afford you"...lol.

I spent 3 years with GCPD. 2 in CID. I worked a number of cases on Sea Island, and as you know...that's a completely different world over there. So, funny story...

Back in '08 or so, there were a number of entering autos on SI. Unlocked of course, and mostly minor thefts, but of course since it's Sea Island, we throw all we have at it. I get sent to work one, and the involved car is a Bentley. White, and with a beige leather interior. Gorgeous car. The owner, a really nice lady, insists that I try to get fingerprints. I explain to her that if I dust her car, it's going to cost more to get it clean than I make in a year. She persists. I call my Captain, explain the situation, and put her on the phone with the complainant. They talk for a few minutes, but Mrs. Moneybags is insistent. Back to me, and my boss says "Dust the **** out of it."

So I do. Not one useful print, other than the owner(s). I hesitate to think about what it cost to get that mess cleaned up.

Jones Kitchen. I assume you're familiar. Love that place.

Go Vols.

 

[VolinWayne]

Yeah, I'm familiar. Good on you. What I just heard was "I can't afford you"...lol.

I spent 3 years with GCPD. 2 in CID. I worked a number of cases on Sea Island, and as you know...that's a completely different world over there. So, funny story...

Back in '08 or so, there were a number of entering autos on SI. Unlocked of course, and mostly minor thefts, but of course since it's Sea Island, we throw all we have at it. I get sent to work one, and the involved car is a Bentley. White, and with a beige leather interior. Gorgeous car. The owner, a really nice lady, insists that I try to get fingerprints. I explain to her that if I dust her car, it's going to cost more to get it clean than I make in a year. She persists. I call my Captain, explain the situation, and put her on the phone with the complainant. They talk for a few minutes, but Mrs. Moneybags is insistent. Back to me, and my boss says "Dust the **** out of it."

So I do. Not one useful print, other than the owner(s). I hesitate to think about what it cost to get that mess cleaned up.

Jones Kitchen. I assume you're familiar. Love that place.

Go Vols.

Lol hilarious story. Sounds about par for the course for Sea Island. There's a completely different level of wealth when you cross that bridge. We've been extremely fortunate and blessed to make a few connections over there. I don't know many other locations where we could turn over the amount of jobs we do all within a five mile radius.

And yes, I'm very familiar with Jones Kitchen. Thats some good cooking there for sure. It's been a while since I've been.

By the way, I'm sure we could come up with a decent rate for a fellow Vols fan by the way.

South of Brunswick...Camden County??

 

[RockyTop85]

@RockyTop85 did some good research on the Official Code of Georgia Annotated (OCGA) on here. Good work.

Disclaimer: I know one of the defendants professionally. In all the years I knew him, I never saw one hint that he was a racist. JMO.

That being said, I don't see how this is anything other than Voluntary Manslaughter at the best, and Felony Murder at the worst. It all depends on how you choose to interpret the pursuit, cornering, confrontation, and finally use of deadly force. But it never was a legitimate citizen's arrest, because the elements of Burglary were never satisfied. Under the existing law at the time (since changed because of this case), a citizen's arrest could only be made for a Felony. Burglary is a felony; Criminal Trespass is not. At least one of those three should have known that.

You cannot create a Stand Your Ground defense by chasing someone, and then "standing your ground" when they decide to attack you. The law in Georgia is very clear on that point.

In the simplest terms possible, this is a case of "who brought the fight to who". And it's clear that the 3 defendants brought the fight to Ahmaud Arbery, and when he had ran until he knew running wasn't going to work, he charged his pursuer(s).

In any event, whatever Ahmaud Arbery's intentions or actions were on February 23rd, 2020...they did not rise to the legitimate use of Deadly Force against him.

Fire away.

Thanks. You ever worked with this Gough defense attorney? Is he local?

 

[hUTch2002]

@RockyTop85 did some good research on the Official Code of Georgia Annotated (OCGA) on here. Good work.

Disclaimer: I know one of the defendants professionally. In all the years I knew him, I never saw one hint that he was a racist. JMO.

That being said, I don't see how this is anything other than Voluntary Manslaughter at the best, and Felony Murder at the worst. It all depends on how you choose to interpret the pursuit, cornering, confrontation, and finally use of deadly force. But it never was a legitimate citizen's arrest, because the elements of Burglary were never satisfied. Under the existing law at the time (since changed because of this case), a citizen's arrest could only be made for a Felony. Burglary is a felony; Criminal Trespass is not. At least one of those three should have known that.

You cannot create a Stand Your Ground defense by chasing someone, and then "standing your ground" when they decide to attack you. The law in Georgia is very clear on that point.

In the simplest terms possible, this is a case of "who brought the fight to who". And it's clear that the 3 defendants brought the fight to Ahmaud Arbery, and when he had ran until he knew running wasn't going to work, he charged his pursuer(s).

In any event, whatever Ahmaud Arbery's intentions or actions were on February 23rd, 2020...they did not rise to the legitimate use of Deadly Force against him.

Fire away.

It’s sad. He looked like a guy just out for a jog. I heard Travis say that he didn’t think Ahmaud was startled by Travis pulling up on him but how would Ahmaud not be startled by a truck blocking the road and a guy getting out with a gun with another guy in the back also with a gun? I believe the Rittenhouse outcome was correct and I believe these guys should do serious jail time as they’re absolutely responsible for Ahmaud’s death whether you call it murder or something else. Sad situation.

 

[NEO]

It’s sad. He looked like a guy just out for a jog. I heard Travis say that he didn’t think Ahmaud was startled by Travis pulling up on him but how would Ahmaud not be startled by a truck blocking the road and a guy getting out with a gun with another guy in the back also with a gun? I believe the Rittenhouse outcome was correct and I believe these guys should do serious jail time as they’re absolutely responsible for Ahmaud’s death whether you call it murder or something else. Sad situation.

I haven’t honestly followed this case at all since it was first publicized so I don’t know a ton of specifics, but from the video alone these guys created the whole scenario and need to be held seriously accountable. I honestly don’t know how anyone thinks they have the right to chase someone down and get out of a car with a gun over stolen property.

Just stupid.

 

[Orangeslice13]

I haven’t honestly followed this case at all since it was first publicized so I don’t know a ton of specifics, but from the video alone these guys created the whole scenario and need to be held seriously accountable. I honestly don’t know how anyone thinks they have the right to chase someone down and get out of a car with a gun over stolen property.

Just stupid.

They suspected he might have stolen something from someone else.
Un****ing believable.
To think it was ok to chase and kill someone over that.

 

[GreyWolf1129]

Thanks. You ever worked with this Gough defense attorney? Is he local?

He’s an idiot

 

[C1500]

They suspected he might have stolen something from someone else.
Un****ing believable.
To think it was ok to chase and kill someone over that.

If you chase someone down with a gun to shoot them, I don't see how that's ever a defense.

 

[Gandalf]

@RockyTop85 did some good research on the Official Code of Georgia Annotated (OCGA) on here. Good work.

Disclaimer: I know one of the defendants professionally. In all the years I knew him, I never saw one hint that he was a racist. JMO.

That being said, I don't see how this is anything other than Voluntary Manslaughter at the best, and Felony Murder at the worst. It all depends on how you choose to interpret the pursuit, cornering, confrontation, and finally use of deadly force. But it never was a legitimate citizen's arrest, because the elements of Burglary were never satisfied. Under the existing law at the time (since changed because of this case), a citizen's arrest could only be made for a Felony. Burglary is a felony; Criminal Trespass is not. At least one of those three should have known that.

You cannot create a Stand Your Ground defense by chasing someone, and then "standing your ground" when they decide to attack you. The law in Georgia is very clear on that point.

In the simplest terms possible, this is a case of "who brought the fight to who". And it's clear that the 3 defendants brought the fight to Ahmaud Arbery, and when he had ran until he knew running wasn't going to work, he charged his pursuer(s).

In any event, whatever Ahmaud Arbery's intentions or actions were on February 23rd, 2020...they did not rise to the legitimate use of Deadly Force against him.

Fire away.

That sounds about where I am at with the little I have seen. I just dont think the evidence I can see supports murder but they are surely guilty of something. I am not arguing the finer legal points but really as to intent. I do think Aubrey had some culpability when he charged them. Even so, I would say its about 25% on him and 75% on the shooter. I think voluntary manslaughter probably describes the essence of what I feel he is guilty of. Again, I am not arguing law, just my take on it. Agreed in this case, they really didnt have the standing for a citizens arrest and without that, it undermines their case for self defense.

 

[NurseGoodVol]

@RockyTop85 did some good research on the Official Code of Georgia Annotated (OCGA) on here. Good work.

Disclaimer: I know one of the defendants professionally. In all the years I knew him, I never saw one hint that he was a racist. JMO.

That being said, I don't see how this is anything other than Voluntary Manslaughter at the best, and Felony Murder at the worst. It all depends on how you choose to interpret the pursuit, cornering, confrontation, and finally use of deadly force. But it never was a legitimate citizen's arrest, because the elements of Burglary were never satisfied. Under the existing law at the time (since changed because of this case), a citizen's arrest could only be made for a Felony. Burglary is a felony; Criminal Trespass is not. At least one of those three should have known that.

You cannot create a Stand Your Ground defense by chasing someone, and then "standing your ground" when they decide to attack you. The law in Georgia is very clear on that point.

In the simplest terms possible, this is a case of "who brought the fight to who". And it's clear that the 3 defendants brought the fight to Ahmaud Arbery, and when he had ran until he knew running wasn't going to work, he charged his pursuer(s).

In any event, whatever Ahmaud Arbery's intentions or actions were on February 23rd, 2020...they did not rise to the legitimate use of Deadly Force against him.

Fire away.

Agree.

 

[volfanhill]

That sounds about where I am at with the little I have seen. I just dont think the evidence I can see supports murder but they are surely guilty of something. I am not arguing the finer legal points but really as to intent. I do think Aubrey had some culpability when he charged them. Even so, I would say its about 25% on him and 75% on the shooter. I think voluntary manslaughter probably describes the essence of what I feel he is guilty of. Again, I am not arguing law, just my take on it. Agreed in this case, they really didnt have the standing for a citizens arrest and without that, it undermines their case for self defense.

Him charging was him acting in self defense. If he had a gun like Kyle did he we would have used it. And been justified.

 

[GroverCleveland]

Yes, these boys are going down I think. They instigated the event, and while Mr. Arbery would have been better served not engaging physically (we know that outcome, probably he is still alive with a big fat lawsuit lined up against the morons if he had not), and that is going to put them behind bars. Again, based ONLY on the little I have seen, rightfully so.

 

[hUTch2002]

I think there are laws you’re not aware of.

Travis McMichael:

Felony murder.


The state alleges that Travis shot and killed Arbury during the commission of a felony aggravated assault and false imprisonment, also a felony.


OGCA 16-5-20 defines “assault” to include: an act which places another in reasonable apprehension of immediately receiving a violent injury. Chasing them with a truck and pointing guns at them would qualify.



So the elements of agg assault are right there in the video. Travis was pointing a firearm at Arbury. False imprisonments seems pretty easy, too.

Unless the defense produces a live Ahmaud Arbury, the coroner can make a prima facia case for felony murder against Travis.

Gregory and likely William Bryan:

Pair that with the felony murder statute and intentionally aiding and abetting the aggravated assault or the false imprisonment becomes criminal responsibility for the murder.

The video and the McMichaels’ statements are enough to ring them up for life sentences.

In order to find them not guilty, a jury would have to either disregard that evidence or find that they were not committing a felony.

Travis’s defense is apparently that it was not an aggravated assault, but a citizen’s arrest.



There has already been trial testimony to indicate that Gregory told police he didn’t know if Arbury had committed any crime. I’m pretty sure Gregory called Travis out of the house, IIRC, so no offense occurred in Travis’s presence and even in hindsight there.

Self defense is also a nonstarter:



Absolutely no question these three guys were the aggressors. Pretty clear they were engaged in felonies.

Absent a jury nullification verdict, these guys are toast. I’ll be shocked if the McMichaels aren’t convicted of felony murder and sentenced to life. Maybe the jury gets confused about Bryan. Sometimes they don’t like felony murder and criminal responsibility statutes, but pretty sure there were statements to the police the inculpated him more than the video showed.

You may disagree with the law, but legally that’s the appropriate outcome and it should be a slam dunk.

Excellent breakdown counselor. Thank you for that.

 

[Orangeslice13]

So does anyone think this wasn’t murder?

 

[NurseGoodVol]

So does anyone think this wasn’t murder?

Looking at all of it, I believe it was.

 

[KB5252]

Him charging was him acting in self defense. If he had a gun like Kyle did he we would have used it. And been justified.

I agree, these guys in the truck were the aggressors. If they thought he stole something and had just observed and reported I'd have been fine with it. They escalated this situation much like Rosenbaum did in the Ritt shooting. I'm thinking manslaughter but if I'm on the jury I could be swayed to murder by that video.

Hard for me to imagine going for the guys weapon like that but that just goes to show his absolute desperation, he thought he had to make a stand. Sad he forced into that situation.

 

[RikidyBones]

So does anyone think this wasn’t murder?

Hard to argue otherwise

 

[Orangeslice13]

Hard to argue otherwise

True but we have a large group that seems to think that KR committed murder when he was similarly attacked

 

[RikidyBones]

True but we have a large group that seems to think that KR committed murder when he was similarly attacked

There are different elements. But I can see the comparison. I think both instances are bad for all parties though.

 

[Orangeslice13]

There are different elements. But I can see the comparison. I think both instances are bad for all parties though.

The only real difference is one was chased down and didn’t have a firearm to defend himself and the other was chased but was armed.

 

[vollygirl]

True but we have a large group that seems to think that KR committed murder when he was similarly attacked

Similarly attacked?

 

[Orangeslice13]

Similarly attacked?

Yes
Both chased down by people trying to do them harm

 

[vollygirl]

Yes
Both chased down by people trying to do them harm

Not similar.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Not similar.

Exactly the same.
2 different attacks with two different results.

 

[Carl Pickens]

True but we have a large group that seems to think that KR committed murder when he was similarly attacked

I’m not privy to what the two guys were thinking so I have no idea if they planned to kill him….murder defined includes premeditation….so murder might be a stretch based on the definition, but they’re definitely guilty of something though.