The NCAA is a shameful organization.

[bleedorange0037]

LOL at Bomani Jones on Around the Horn. He just said "This wasn't the NCAA's business. The NCAA is here to drug test and keep kids broke."

 

[slimjim85vols]

You are crossing up two different incidents. The '98 incident did occur while Sandusky was still DC, but there were no witnesses. The child's mother contacted the police. There was an investigation, but no charges were filed.

The GA, Mike McQueary, witnessed the 2001 incident. That's when the coverup began.

I may have mixed up the two.... but in any account we all know without having proof that if that had come out then it would have been a negative on the school that would have been questioned by most recruits and parents for the remaining of Paternos career and longer, just as it is going to be brought up by future recruits now.

I will say in normal cases I would disagree with the NCAA to step in such as dui arrests and such... but this isn't a normal case. This is one of the cruellest, thoughtless, care for your own and to hell with everyone else cases I can think of.

1 of the things I would like to have seen though is in the scholarship reduction part, I believe that while taking away from the athletic side, each of those lost scholarships should have to be used as an academic scholarship to a specifically non-athlete.

 

[bamawriter]

LOL at Bomani Jones on Around the Horn. He just said "This wasn't the NCAA's business. The NCAA is here to drug test and keep kids broke."

The man speaks the truth.

 

[bamawriter]

1 of the things I would like to have seen though is in the scholarship reduction part, I believe that while taking away from the athletic side, each of those lost scholarships should have to be used as an academic scholarship to a specifically non-athlete.

Emmert said something interesting regarding that. It wasn't in the press release, so I'm not sure of the details. He said that if a current player has an athletic scholarship, but no longer wants to play football, but wants to stay at PSU, he can keep his athletic schollie and it will still count against PSU's reduced total.

 

[PowerSweep]

They have a top 15 class now... I bet that changes! And Sandusky was still DC when the first transgression happened! He was seen by a GA doing it and nothing was done. That is hardly 3-4 years prior. In the case above, the company is liable too, just as in this case. The university was a safe haven for molesting children and frankly just knowing that I wouldn't care if Beaver stadium burnt to the ground.

Plain and simple this was done to protect the football program.... so if the program is not punished, then at the end of the day, they were successful, arrested, charged, convicted, or dead... they still would have been perceived to have protected the program as no harm was done to the program.

And yes it would have hurt recruiting, negative recruiting would have been rampant (just like its about to kick up a notch now), I'm sure there would have been players not pick Penn State knowing now what they didn't know then, and could have possibly hurt win-loss records... resulting in perhaps less $ they took in from bowls etc. They cheated the other teams they played (whether in conference or out), they cheated their conference, they cheated those kids childhoods, and last but not least they cheated their Penn State family as well. Everyday they didn't report this, they were a dirty program, everyday they went home to. Their homes and families knowing what that monster did to those and was still doing was dirty, and anyone try to say poor pitiful Penn State football program right now is dirty because wasn't nobody giving a damn about those kids when they needed to, so I sure as hell don't care what happens to the football program now.

ok LET'S GO POINT BY POINT HERE:

And Sandusky was still DC when the first transgression happened! He was seen by a GA doing it and nothing was done. That is hardly 3-4 years prior

In 2001 he would have been out of the program for 3-4 years


And yes it would have hurt recruiting, negative recruiting would have been rampant (just like its about to kick up a notch now), I'm sure there would have been players not pick Penn State knowing now what they didn't know then

If it's largely (in a no doubt worse environment than would have existed in 2001) not affecting them now why would it have affected them then?

The rest of what you say is true, but that's what civil court is for...damages to victims.

 

[slimjim85vols]

Emmert said something interesting regarding that. It wasn't in the press release, so I'm not sure of the details. He said that if a current player has an athletic scholarship, but no longer wants to play football, but wants to stay at PSU, he can keep his athletic schollie and it will still count against PSU's reduced total.

I saw that part, I meant as in the forfeited scholarships, cause if 1 were to stay on scholly but not play that would drop the scholarship players actually playing to 64.... I mean it as in, instead of countless people not getting an education, give the unused athletic scholarships to people maybe trying to become a pediatrician, child social worker.... people whose primary focus of there career is to help children

 

[bleedorange0037]

Impactful in a negative way? Thats more of an understatement than my comment was over the top. How would i know their lives were destroyed? My father was sexually abused as a child. Thats how i know how it can affect the victims of this crime. It took him until he was in his thirties to even be able to talk about it, and thats because the man who abused him died. He has told me that he feels like what happened to him destroyed the person he could have been and instead he has to live as someone who was forced to have to spend his life knowing what happened to him. Being exposed to the horrors of the world so young destroys the life these children would have otherwise lived.

And no punishment levied against penn state, sandusky, or anyone else involved will ever be enough to make up for what happened. Does that mean no one should be punished? If someone commits murder and is sentenced to life in prison it doesnt bring back the person they killed, but that doesnt mean you let the murderer go. Even if nothing you do would ever make it right, you still have to do something. Inaction isnt the answer.

Can you explain how any of the sanctions handed down today negatively impact a single person who was responsible for the rape of these children or covering it up? They don't. They are simply being used to quiet a mob who seeks endless vengeance against these people because like you mention, the justice system can do no more than put these guys behind bars for life. With no physical people in their jurisdiction, the NCAA instead exacts its brand of justice on an abstract institution and in turn ends up hurting hundreds of innocent people. That's why I think the NCAA would have been best to stay out of this matter.

However, if they did feel they HAD to act, these half-ass punishments are a joke. Would you not agree that this is the single most heinous thing that the NCAA has ever imposed sanctions for? I do, and with that in mind, knowing that the NCAA has in the past, for lesser crimes, handed out stiffer penalties makes today's sanctions laughable. IMO, if the NCAA felt obliged to do something, their only course of action should have been to shut down Penn State's football program. Not for a year, not for five years, but FOREVER.

You can't put yourself in a position where based on precedent you are essentially saying that covering for a serial child rapist for 10+ years is worse than a school buying a players mom a house, but not quite as bad as continuing to pay recruits even though you have been warned multiple times to stop. But, that's what the NCAA did today, and it's pathetic.

 

[PowerSweep]

Impactful in a negative way? Thats more of an understatement than my comment was over the top. How would i know their lives were destroyed? My father was sexually abused as a child. Thats how i know how it can affect the victims of this crime. It took him until he was in his thirties to even be able to talk about it, and thats because the man who abused him died. He has told me that he feels like what happened to him destroyed the person he could have been and instead he has to live as someone who was forced to have to spend his life knowing what happened to him. Being exposed to the horrors of the world so young destroys the life these children would have otherwise lived.

And no punishment levied against penn state, sandusky, or anyone else involved will ever be enough to make up for what happened. Does that mean no one should be punished? If someone commits murder and is sentenced to life in prison it doesnt bring back the person they killed, but that doesnt mean you let the murderer go. Even if nothing you do would ever make it right, you still have to do something. Inaction isnt the answer.

Would you say his life was destroyed?

 

[Burger]

ok LET'S GO POINT BY POINT HERE:

And Sandusky was still DC when the first transgression happened! He was seen by a GA doing it and nothing was done. That is hardly 3-4 years prior

In 2001 he would have been out of the program for 3-4 years


And yes it would have hurt recruiting, negative recruiting would have been rampant (just like its about to kick up a notch now), I'm sure there would have been players not pick Penn State knowing now what they didn't know then

If it's largely (in a no doubt worse environment than would have existed in 2001) not affecting them now why would it have affected them then?

The rest of what you say is true, but that's what civil court is for...damages to victims.

No matter how this is placed, a whole institution did have the lack of institutional control charge. How would it not be lack of institutional control? This is way worse than a player getting free shoes, or being able to resell their textbook for market value. The athletic department was out of control with what they did.

If the administration, and the coaches are lying for the sake of keeping their football program alive a little longer, this would totally be in NCAA control. This is about morality in sports, not the simple pay for players.

 

[armchair]

The NCAA overreached in this matter--it probably doesn't have much authority in what is a criminal/civil matter. But the Pa.state football program is at the heart of this case, it did enable Sandusky for many years--and for that reason I don't have a problem with the NCAA cracking on it. I love college football--but it is far too big and far too corrupt, and of course has been for decades. In a perfect world it would be downsized and integrity returned to the academic side of the big state football programs--but they make too much money, college football generates too much money--and for that reason nothing will really change. This is America--where wisdom and ethics are sacrificed daily on the altar of greed.

 

[bleedorange0037]

No matter how this is placed, a whole institution did have the lack of institutional control charge. How would it not be lack of institutional control? This is way worse than a player getting free shoes, or being able to resell their textbook for market value. The athletic department was out of control with what they did.

If the administration, and the coaches are lying for the sake of keeping their football program alive a little longer, this would totally be in NCAA control. This is about morality in sports, not the simple pay for players.

This may be true, yet to my knowledge, Penn State broke no specific NCAA rules. I certainly didn't hear Emmert mention any specific violations this morning. Like it or not, the NCAA is in place to ensure fair play of amateur student athletes, not to legislate morality. LOIC is just a catch-all that they will conveniently throw this under in an effort to justify having overstepped their bounds.

 

[PowerSweep]

They are simply being used to quiet a mob who seeks endless vengeance against these people because like you mention, the justice system can do no more than put these guys behind bars for life. With no physical people in their jurisdiction, the NCAA instead exacts its brand of justice on an abstract institution and in turn ends up hurting hundreds of innocent people.

So true!

 

[PowerSweep]

No matter how this is placed, a whole institution did have the lack of institutional control charge. How would it not be lack of institutional control? This is way worse than a player getting free shoes, or being able to resell their textbook for market value. The athletic department was out of control with what they did.

If the administration, and the coaches are lying for the sake of keeping their football program alive a little longer, this would totally be in NCAA control. This is about morality in sports, not the simple pay for players.

People mentioning LOIC are making the most common mistake in assessing this...

A lack of institutional control is found when the Committee on Infractions determines that major violations occurred and the institution failed to display: (1) Adequate compliance measures. (2) Appropriate education on those compliance measures. (3) Sufficient monitoring to ensure the compliance measures are followed. (4) Swift action upon learning of a violation. [NCAA]

Clearly LOIC, given the definition, does not apply here. Those citing LOIC should state what the major violations were according to the rulebook.

 

[VolBeef88]

That's not how he framed the issue:

"While there's been much speculation about whether this fits this specific bylaw or that specific bylaw, it certainly hits the fundamental values of what athletics are supposed to be doing in the context of higher education."

So it's not against any "specific bylaw." But you've argued numerous times that the character clause was a bylaw.

No I have not called it a bylaw. It's a separate "rule" that member organizations can use to maintain the integrity of the member organization it's very standard.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[PowerSweep]

No I have not called it a bylaw. It's a separate "rule" that member organizations can use to maintain the integrity of the member organization it's very standard.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

Voluntary organizations still have to follow their by laws . But it is I guess a moot point since the NCAA exploited their shame to get them to accept this overstepping of their authority. Had they gone to court they would have won.

 

[CountVolcula]

Voluntary organizations still have to follow their by laws . But it is I guess a moot point since the NCAA exploited their shame to get them to accept this overstepping of their authority. Had they gone to court they would have won.

Sorry about the bowl ban
{in my best Forrest Gump voice}

 

[bamahatr]

Voluntary organizations still have to follow their by laws . But it is I guess a moot point since the NCAA exploited their shame to get them to accept this overstepping of their authority. Had they gone to court they would have won.

Yes, they would have won. Essentially the NCAA blackmailed them into accepting this BS penalty package by threatening the death penalty if they didnt follow along, thats what is being reported on CFT.

 

[volfanbill]

not going to read all 11 pages, but I'm just going to say that the original post is the best post milo has ever made. That's not saying much, so I'll also add that it's one of the best posts ever made on this board. Dr Emmert has combined the power hungriness of Roger Goodell and the overbearing brashness of Myles Brand and make them look like good leaders. He's destroying the integrity of the NCAA more and more every day. Today he completely wiped it clean.

 

[Burger]

They are simply being used to quiet a mob who seeks endless vengeance against these people because like you mention, the justice system can do no more than put these guys behind bars for life. With no physical people in their jurisdiction, the NCAA instead exacts its brand of justice on an abstract institution and in turn ends up hurting hundreds of innocent people.

So true!

What happened to the real death penalty?? I'd go see Sandusky get hung in Happy Valley.

Penn State - NCAA.org

That's why the NCAA can act.

The Executive Committee acts on behalf of the entire Association and implements policies to resolve core issues, pursuant to its authority under the NCAA Constitution and Bylaw Provision 4.1.2(e). The Executive Committee along with the Division I Board, a body of presidents representing all of Division I, directed President Emmert to examine the circumstances surrounding the Penn State tragedy and, if appropriate, make recommendations regarding punitive and corrective measures.

As a result of information produced from the Sandusky criminal investigation and the Freeh Report, which Penn State commissioned and also agreed to its factual findings, it became obvious that the leadership failures at Penn State over an extended period of time directly violated Association bylaws and the NCAA Constitution relating to control over the athletic department, integrity and ethical conduct.

2.4 The Principle of Sportsmanship and Ethical Conduct.

For intercollegiate athletics to promote the character development of participants, to enhance the integrity of higher education and to promote civility in society, student-athletes, coaches, and all others associated with these athletics programs and events should adhere to such fundamental values as respect, fairness, civility, honesty and responsibility. These values should be manifest not only in athletics participation, but also in the broad spectrum of activities affecting the athletics program. It is the responsibility of each institution to:
(a) Establish policies for sportsmanship and ethical conduct in intercollegiate athletics consistent with the educational mission and goals of the institution; and
(b) Educate, on a continuing basis, all constituencies about the policies in this article.

Quoted from NCAA, this thread is over.

 

[PowerSweep]

What happened to the real death penalty?? I'd go see Sandusky get hung in Happy Valley.

Penn State - NCAA.org

That's why the NCAA can act.

C'mon...that is silly...we can act because last night we just made a new rule that we could act. That's essentially what is being said.

As for 2.4 you edited to include above that is not a rule but merely a principle which informs actual rules. Otherwise there is no limiting principle to keep the ncaa from giving sanctions for an extramarital affair. We have some folks that just love them some benevolent dictatorships...

 

[Burger]

C'mon...that is silly...we can act because last night we just made a new rule that we could act. That's essentially what is being said.

Oops

 

[Burger]

C'mon...that is silly...we can act because last night we just made a new rule that we could act. That's essentially what is being said.

So 2 examples of the same rule isnt enough for you? The original intent of the NCAA was to have intergrity and honor in the athletics, obviously they suck most of the time at that. Unless you're going to say a whole Athletic Department hiding a child molestor is ethical, this is done.

 

[PowerSweep]

So 2 examples of the same rule isnt enough for you?

Neither is a rule. One is a procedural judgement that they could act because they decided they could act and the second is a principle.

ESPN analyst Jay Bilas is a practicing attorney.

"The NCAA circumvented its own rules to take this action," Bilas told USA TODAY Sports by phone Monday morning. "It does create a precedent.

What rule was broken by Penn St?

 

[Redstater]

The NCAA is a voluntary association. If PS doesn't want to accept the penalty they can join the NAIA.

However, I do have one beef with Emmert's statement:

"Football will never again be placed ahead of educating, nurturing and protecting young people," NCAA President Mark Emmert declared in announcing the penalties."

Based on graduation rates and copious other evidence, PS has never put football ahead of educating young people, nurturing and and proctecting, yes, but not educating. I think that one or two SEC schools might want to consider the "educating" part.

 

[Burger]

Neither is a rule.

Does it have to be written that raping children in an NCAA locker room is illegal in the NCAA? I hate the NCAA as much as you do because they're most of the time hypocritical idiots, but they're right on this one.

(a) Establish policies for sportsmanship and ethical conduct in intercollegiate athletics consistent with the educational mission and goals of the institution; and
(b) Educate, on a continuing basis, all constituencies about the policies in this article.

Child rape violates both of those. Penn State obviously ignored having an ethics program concurrent to the educational goal of the school. Penn State ignored their responsibilities for hiding this gross misconduct.