The Official Libertarian/Anarcho-Capitalist Thread

#851
#851
n_huffhines said:
If I were to ask you what makes people behave, if we got down to the root of it, your answer would be "fear of consequence".

I think fear of consequence still exists under this system. I don't know why people think fear of consequence goes away if government goes away.
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that would not be my answer at all - for example if I am power hungry all that makes me behave is patience to amass my power base.

the fact that you believe there is one root motivation for all people demonstrates the point I've been trying to make.

there is a diversity of motives that the market cannot make uniform.

unfettering all of humanity from any societally agreed structure of government would mean that ultimately those with might and resources would dominate those without more so than we see today. The market favors greed much more than altruism. Greed is good but has it's limits.
 
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#852
#852
n_huffhines said:
Think of it this way. Wal Mart is the biggest and the baddest. When you return an item to their store, they don't accept it because they are legally obligated to. They do it because they follow their incentives.

My Dad dropped his TV and scratched the screen. He told Wal-Mart what happened, and they exchanged it at no charge. It's weird that my Dad had recourse outside of government, even when he was in the wrong. My Dad isn't the biggest or the baddest. Wal Mart just likes long term profitability.
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This is a crap example and blows your anarcho theory out of the water. Walmart has been taking control of the retail market for years with no sign of slowing down. They move into small towns and crush the small business owner. Just imagine they're a protection agency.
 
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#853
#853
n_huffhines said:
If a neutral 3rd party finds you owing, your protection agency gladly walks and leaves you on your own. They are not obligated to cover you when you are at fault. In fact, they may have an arrangement in dealing with other protection firms that they pay for your damages, and then it's up to them to collect from you. Good luck with that.
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You mean like organized crime ......mafia and what not?
Just because you paid the 16 year old 9th grader to protect you from the lunch money throttlings doesn't mean the concept will work on a large scale.
 
#854
#854
n_huffhines said:
Those are 3 problems you have with government that will be exacerbated in the absence of government?

1) the government is the one who takes away our civil rights. What makes you think civil rights would be more threatened in the absence of the biggest threat to them?
2) what would cause economic armageddon, exactly? what economic stability does government guarantee?
3) Total destruction of infrastructure...not even sure what that means. Like we won't have internet or gas? You really think we can't solve these simple problems without government?
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government is only the biggest threat to civil rights since there isn't an alternative. Under Ancap the threat would be widespread but diffuse until power was consolidated over time

the stability for the economy provided by government is 2 fold: 1) enforced contract law and 2) financial backstop

back to the "who says we can't solve these problems" argument without providing an example of who would provide public goods. We know that government can solve (albeit maybe not always efficiently) a public goods problem.


Here's a major problem with the "market will take care of it" mentality. The market won't take care of it in the short term. As an individual you could get screwed hard by the system you advocate with the only recourse being those that screwed you may suffer market-based consequences sometime down the road as the system adjusts.

What rule of law provides is more immediate protection even if it comes from a lesser choice set. There are short-term protections built in that simply don't exist in an invisible hand control mechanism.
 
#855
#855
n_huffhines said:
I didn't make those claims. People cheat, especially if they can get away with it, but they generally play fair because it pays to play nice.
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Wtf? Yeah the world is full of sugar plum fairies, warm fuzzy kittens, hearts and cherubs....
 
#856
#856
n_huffhines said:
I don't think the protection agencies are showing up at your gates ready to seize your property like a bunch of goons. It's most likely a covert operation where they took your CEO and board of executives in the middle of the night. Maybe you are protecting yourself against that, but have fun living the rest of your life like that. The protection agencies will minimize cost and wait for their opportune moment to get you.
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This protection agency BS sounds just like getting shaken down by mafia goons. Pay us for your protection or we'll kill you ourselves.
 
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#857
#857
n_huffhines said:
Those are 3 problems you have with government that will be exacerbated in the absence of government?

1) the government is the one who takes away our civil rights. What makes you think civil rights would be more threatened in the absence of the biggest threat to them?
2) what would cause economic armageddon, exactly? what economic stability does government guarantee?
3) Total destruction of infrastructure...not even sure what that means. Like we won't have internet or gas? You really think we can't solve these simple problems without government?
Click to expand...

Is this what you've been playing?
 

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#858
#858
Feudal systems were mentioned earlier - how were they not a form of AnCap? Those with the most resources and might wrote the rules. While they were technically "rulers" it wasn't because of elected government - it was due to resources and will to control others. It was a market system - just not one where all participants were on even footing.

Why would AnCap be different? We have massive wealth discrepancy - the smart business model would be to serve those who can pay. The vast majority of the population can't afford to pay a protection agency and given they currently have zero to negative tax burden it's not like removal of government frees up cash flow for them.

Even if a protection agency of the people forms (Walmart) what's to stop them from exercising that power against them when they reach sufficient size?

Large portions of the population will not be able to afford protection.

Deals will be made and companies will rightly protect profits; the profitable customers to serve.

There is no backstop to prevent fiefdom development.
 
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#859
#859
n_huffhines said:
Those are 3 problems you have with government that will be exacerbated in the absence of government?

1) the government is the one who takes away our civil rights. What makes you think civil rights would be more threatened in the absence of the biggest threat to them?
2) what would cause economic armageddon, exactly? what economic stability does government guarantee?
3) Total destruction of infrastructure...not even sure what that means. Like we won't have internet or gas? You really think we can't solve these simple problems without government?
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None of our problems are caused by government! They are caused by the people we elect to run our government!

If the majority of people do such a piss poor job in selecting leadership which costs nothing? What on earth gives you the idea that the majority of people would hire the right firms and pay directly out of their pockets?
 
#860
#860
Carl Pickens said:
This protection agency BS sounds just like getting shaken down by mafia goons. Pay us for your protection or we'll kill you ourselves.
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Yeah, cause that's on the table. Go to a thread that requires less thinking and more snarkiness, please.
 
#861
#861
Carl Pickens said:
This is a crap example and blows your anarcho theory out of the water. Walmart has been taking control of the retail market for years with no sign of slowing down. They move into small towns and crush the small business owner. Just imagine they're a protection agency.
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Every small town with a Wal-Mart has alternatives to Wal-Mart. Even the smallest town. So there goes that point.
 
#862
#862
volinbham said:
government is only the biggest threat to civil rights since there isn't an alternative. Under Ancap the threat would be widespread but diffuse until power was consolidated over time

the stability for the economy provided by government is 2 fold: 1) enforced contract law and 2) financial backstop

back to the "who says we can't solve these problems" argument without providing an example of who would provide public goods. We know that government can solve (albeit maybe not always efficiently) a public goods problem.


Here's a major problem with the "market will take care of it" mentality. The market won't take care of it in the short term. As an individual you could get screwed hard by the system you advocate with the only recourse being those that screwed you may suffer market-based consequences sometime down the road as the system adjusts.

What rule of law provides is more immediate protection even if it comes from a lesser choice set. There are short-term protections built in that simply don't exist in an invisible hand control mechanism.
Click to expand...

Right, but General George Washington didn't say no to a revolution cause the transitional phase was worrisome.
 
#864
#864
n_huffhines said:
I don't think the protection agencies are showing up at your gates ready to seize your property like a bunch of goons. It's most likely a covert operation where they took your CEO and board of executives in the middle of the night. Maybe you are protecting yourself against that, but have fun living the rest of your life like that. The protection agencies will minimize cost and wait for their opportune moment to get you.
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And when that happens, my guys come over to your house and shoot your wife and kids.

It's just business.
 
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#866
#866
volinbham said:
Feudal systems were mentioned earlier - how were they not a form of AnCap? Those with the most resources and might wrote the rules. While they were technically "rulers" it wasn't because of elected government - it was due to resources and will to control others. It was a market system - just not one where all participants were on even footing.

Why would AnCap be different? We have massive wealth discrepancy - the smart business model would be to serve those who can pay. The vast majority of the population can't afford to pay a protection agency and given they currently have zero to negative tax burden it's not like removal of government frees up cash flow for them.

Even if a protection agency of the people forms (Walmart) what's to stop them from exercising that power against them when they reach sufficient size?

Large portions of the population will not be able to afford protection.

Deals will be made and companies will rightly protect profits; the profitable customers to serve.

There is no backstop to prevent fiefdom development.
Click to expand...

Why do you assume that large portions of the population will not be able to afford protection? To me that's like saying a large portion of the population won't be able to afford food. Basically everyone can afford food.
 
#867
#867
SpaceCoastVol said:
And when that happens, my guys come over to your house and shoot your wife and kids.

It's just business.
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Right, no consequences to actions because there is no government. No matter how many potential consequences I spell out, you respond as if there are no consequences. Stop wasting my time.
 
#870
#870
n_huffhines said:
Every small town with a Wal-Mart has alternatives to Wal-Mart. Even the smallest town. So there goes that point.
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Not really. My parents ran a 5 and dime store in a small town in KY for 25 years. Until WAL came into town. They couldn't compete. Neither could the shoe store or the clothing store or several other small businesses that ringed the classic small town "square". Now that square is ringed with boarded up storefronts and thrift stores. Your point is asinine and void of clue about the effect WAL has had on small town America. I have seen it first hand, and my parents lived it.
 
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#872
#872
n_huffhines said:
Why do you assume that large portions of the population will not be able to afford protection? To me that's like saying a large portion of the population won't be able to afford food. Basically everyone can afford food.
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A large portion of our population can't afford food without, yep you guessed it, government support. When the cost of food goes even higher due to AnCap, which ends government subsidies, how are they going to afford security?
 
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#873
#873
n_huffhines said:
Why do you assume that large portions of the population will not be able to afford protection? To me that's like saying a large portion of the population won't be able to afford food. Basically everyone can afford food.
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As we speak there's lots and lots of people that are basically making it only because they're subsidized. Food, housing...I suppose AnCap could start with a good culling...The Purge maybe?
 
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#874
#874
SpaceCoastVol said:
Not really. My parents ran a 5 and dime store in a small town in KY for 25 years. Until WAL came into town. They couldn't compete. Neither could the shoe store or the clothing store or several other small businesses that ringed the classic small town "square". Now that square is ringed with boarded up storefronts and thrift stores. Your point is asinine and void of clue about the effect WAL has had on small town America. I have seen it first hand, and my parents lived it.
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Your parents couldn't compete but some people still do. Sucks for your parents, but don't pretend like Wal-Mart is the only retailer in town.
 
#875
#875
n_huffhines said:
It's worked for government for how long?

Your best arguments against protection agencies are arguments against government. Am I taking crazy pills?
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hog88 said:
None of our problems are caused by government! They are caused by the people we elect to run our government!

If the majority of people do such a piss poor job in selecting leadership which costs nothing? What on earth gives you the idea that the majority of people would hire the right firms and pay directly out of their pockets?
Click to expand...

I'm still waiting for your thoughts.
 
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