The Official Obama HealthCare Summit Thread

#51
#51
bam15 said:
A recovery is taking place, I don't know how you can deny that. That said, the stimulus package should have been around 1.4-1.5 trillion instead of the 700-800 range.
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please tell me you are being sarcastic. what signs are that the recovery is taking place? and why would you spend an extra $600 mil when the first version wasted so much money?
 
#52
#52
droski said:
please tell me you are being sarcastic.
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I dont think so.

Breaking for lunch is the only bi-partisan agreement that will come out of this summit.

Now, they are arguing over whether Chicago Deep Dish or New York Style is the better pizza. I heard some New York Dems have turned their backs on NY and agreed with Obama that Chicago pizza is the best.

Harumph-Harumph-Harumph
 
#54
#54
droski said:
please tell me you are being sarcastic. what signs are that the recovery is taking place? and why would you spend an extra $600 mil when the first version wasted so much money?
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Why would I be sarcastic?

All of the implications of a jobless recovery are here, but the economy is slowly recovering, and when I mean slowly, I mean slowly. The point of this is, if our country didn't take evasive action with the Stimulus plan, our situation would be much worse. However, the stimulus was not large enough. The saddening part of this situation is deficit hawks on the right who want to balance the budget immediately, something FDR tried in 1937, which backfired.

The stimulus was large by historical standards but largely inadequate to the size of the problem.
 
#55
#55
bam15 said:
Why would I be sarcastic?

All of the implications of a jobless recovery are here, but the economy is slowly recovering, and when I mean slowly, I mean slowly. The point of this is, if our country didn't take evasive action with the Stimulus plan, our situation would be much worse. However, the stimulus was not large enough. The saddening part of this situation is deficit hawks on the right who want to balance the budget immediately, something FDR tried in 1937, which backfired.

The stimulus was large by historical standards but largely inadequate to the size of the problem.
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i don't see any implications of a recovery. i see declining drops or at best a bottoming which isn't hte same thing. and there is zero evidence the situation would have been far worse without the stimulus plan, yet there is lots of evidence of billions of pork. obama is claiming jobs saved in districts that don't exist for christ sake.
 
#56
#56
AirVol said:
Can't believe he's not using the teleprompter.
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Obamathoughts on twitter. (pretty funny.)

There supposedly a video of Barry falling asleep at this health care 'summit,' but I can't seem to find a link that works.

obamaassleephealt.jpg


Snoozer-in-chief.
 
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#57
#57
bam15 said:
Why would I be sarcastic?

All of the implications of a jobless recovery are here, but the economy is slowly recovering, and when I mean slowly, I mean slowly. The point of this is, if our country didn't take evasive action with the Stimulus plan, our situation would be much worse. However, the stimulus was not large enough. The saddening part of this situation is deficit hawks on the right who want to balance the budget immediately, something FDR tried in 1937, which backfired.

The stimulus was large by historical standards but largely inadequate to the size of the problem.
Click to expand...

Why is it the govt responsibility to stimulate the economy, the govt should get the hell out of the way and mind their own business. I can't believe even you would say that it was not big enough, this one has not and will not do anything but put us further in debt, how much more debt do you want us in?

The problem here is too much govt interference not too little.
 
#58
#58
volfanjustin said:
Why is it the govt responsibility to stimulate the economy, the govt should get the hell out of the way and mind their own business. I can't believe even you would say that it was not big enough, this one has not and will not do anything but put us further in debt, how much more debt do you want us in?

The problem here is too much govt interference not too little.
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Get out of the way during a recession? Sure that makes plenty of sense.

What kind of argument is this? Even Republicans were supporting some sort of a stimulus plan.

I'll give you a hint, a certain leader did absolutely nothing to stop a recession, and then became so desperate to balance the budget in the midst of a recession that he cut spending and raised taxes.

You know how that story ended.
 
#59
#59
droski said:
i don't see any implications of a recovery. i see declining drops or at best a bottoming which isn't hte same thing. and there is zero evidence the situation would have been far worse without the stimulus plan, yet there is lots of evidence of billions of pork. obama is claiming jobs saved in districts that don't exist for christ sake.
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Even if the economy were doing better, it is disingenuous to state that - for a fact - any improvement is a result of the stimulus. In addition to the fact that economies have been naturally recovering long before the stimuli suggested by John Maynard Keynes, a lot of other factors have changed since 2007-2008, independent of the stimulus. For instance, we've gone from oil at $145 a barrel to around $28; we've had the federal reserve do everything in its power to boost the money supply; TARP legislation; the list goes on and on. No one knows the effect the stimulus has had on the economy because there are simply too many variables in the equation. I'm surprised that Bam resorts to saying it should have been bigger without recognizing that it might not have "needed" to be anything larger and might have in fact been smaller had it been more focused and not spent on so many ridiculous pork projects.

EDIT: to point out that I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the fact that a stimulus is beneficial in a recession, I'm pointing out (1) that they are not always necessary; and (2) we can't simply attribute an increase in economic activity to the stimulus when there were a lot of other factors working here.
 
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#60
#60
Bam just wants to print money and throw it from planes. 800 million to build go kart parks in Wisconsin and Minnesota was a good investment.
 
#61
#61
bam15 said:
Get out of the way during a recession? Sure that makes plenty of sense.

What kind of argument is this? Even Republicans were supporting some sort of a stimulus plan.

I'll give you a hint, a certain leader did absolutely nothing to stop a recession, and then became so desperate to balance the budget in the midst of a recession that he cut spending and raised taxes.

You know how that story ended.
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I am not a Republican first of all so I could care less what they supported.

And yes, they should cut taxes, cut spending and move out of the way. Recessions happen, its part of our economic system, we have peaks and valleys. We would probably be on our way to recovery but due to all the govt interference falsely inflating the economy they are just kicking the can and the longer they do this the worse it will be. The system has to fix itself, and it will.
 
#62
#62
OrangeEmpire said:
Bam just wants to print money and throw it from planes. 800 million to build go kart parks in Wisconsin and Minnesota was a good investment.
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Throwing 800 billion from planes would have likely reached the same result. Those that collected it would have spent the money on what they considered valuable.
 
#63
#63
paul1454 said:
Even if the economy were doing better, it is disingenuous to state that - for a fact - any improvement is a result of the stimulus.

Stimulus or no stimulus, plenty of variables are involved. However, I can't understand how people say that doing nothing would somehow improve the economy? Tax cuts/credits, and spending/works are vital during economic downtimes.

In addition to the fact that economies have been naturally recovering long before the stimuli suggested by John Maynard Keynes, a lot of other factors have changed since 2007-2008, independent of the stimulus.

I agree, there is other factors involved. The ideas suggested by JMK were revolutionary, and in reality for those who say WWII got the US out of the damn, WWII was a extremely large public works project. It's also further proof of the fed gov't not doing enough during the New Deal.

For instance, we've gone from oil at $145 a barrel to around $28; we've had the federal reserve do everything in its power to boost the money supply; TARP legislation; the list goes on and on. [

The federal reserve has done it's job for the most part, in conjunction with JMK's theories. I would raise inflationary targeting.

No one knows the effect the stimulus has had on the economy because there are simply too many variables in the equation. I'm surprised that Bam resorts to saying it should have been bigger without recognizing that it might not have "needed" to be anything larger and might have in fact been smaller had it been more focused and not spent on so many ridiculous pork projects.

The stimulus was desperately needed, obviously in politics pork will be involved. The stimulus had to provide demand, and with the risk of a deflationary trap it was urgently needed. Why I'm saying the 1.4 trillion-1.5 trillion range:
Overkill is better
More aid to state govt's
More infrastructure spending
More public works
Possibly even more short-time tax cuts/credits, health aid.


EDIT: to point out that I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the fact that a stimulus is beneficial in a recession, I'm pointing out (1) that they are not always necessary; and (2) we can't simply attribute an increase in economic activity to the stimulus when there were a lot of other factors working here.

The stimulus was absolutely needed. The CBO was originally estimating 2.9 trillion shortfall over three years.
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:good!:
 
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#64
#64
OrangeEmpire said:
Bam just wants to print money and throw it from planes. 800 million to build go kart parks in Wisconsin and Minnesota was a good investment.
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I'm serious about the deflationary levels and larger stimulus. :good!:
 
#65
#65
"The federal reserve has done it's job for the most part, in conjunction with JMK's theories."

complete and utter garbage
 
#68
#68
Since the Summit is back on here is an interesting fact.

Since 1981, Republicans have used reconciliation 14 times, Democrats 8 times.
 
#69
#69
volfanjustin said:
I am not a Republican first of all so I could care less what they supported.

And yes, they should cut taxes, cut spending and move out of the way. Recessions happen, its part of our economic system, we have peaks and valleys. We would probably be on our way to recovery but due to all the govt interference falsely inflating the economy they are just kicking the can and the longer they do this the worse it will be. The system has to fix itself, and it will.
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Tea-Party? :birgits_giggle:

Where would you cut spending? Cut taxes for whom? The wealthiest one percent?

We have peaks and valleys, and you have to help control those peaks and valleys. When you get sick you go to the doctor, when you hurt a tooth you go to the dentist. More spending, tax credits/cuts, etc. will boost aggregate demand and manage the economy.

I just don't buy the Hayek approach.
 
#70
#70
please name a single economy in the world where this has worked.

the advent of monotary policy in this country after reagan is what has resulted in the longest period of lowest valleys and highest peaks in the history of the world.
 
#71
#71
droski said:
please name a single economy in the world where this has worked.

the advent of monotary policy in this country after reagan is what has resulted in the longest period of lowest valleys and highest peaks in the history of the world.
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What ever you want to think Milton.
 
#72
#72
bam15 said:
Tea-Party? :birgits_giggle:

Where would you cut spending? Cut taxes for whom? The wealthiest one percent?

We have peaks and valleys, and you have to help control those peaks and valleys. When you get sick you go to the doctor, when you hurt a tooth you go to the dentist. More spending, tax credits/cuts, etc. will boost aggregate demand and manage the economy.

I just don't buy the Hayek approach.
Click to expand...

What evidence is there that we can effectively smooth out these peaks and valleys?
 
#74
#74
bam15 said:
Since the Summit is back on here is an interesting fact.

Since 1981, Republicans have used reconciliation 14 times, Democrats 8 times.
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Yes and every time the Rs have used it, is on a budget related issue. The Constitution (a document I doubt you have ever read) requires Congress to pass a budget. Therefore reconciliation can be used to pass budget issues because it is the purpose of Congress. The Dems are wanting to use reconciliation to pass a policy issue that does not concern the budget (just excess spending not included in the budget). This would be equivalent to the Rs using reconciliation to pass an abortion ban.
 
#75
#75
When I need an oil change I file and insurance claim, when I get my tires rotated my insurance company gets billed, when I... oh wait I don't do any of those things for preventive maintenance on my car. But when I have a catastrophic event like a wreck I do file insurance claims. This is the purpose of insurance not the bastardization of health insurance that we have today.
 
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