The Pessimist Thread

#201
#201
Mike4Vols said:
Don't portray the recruits as choir boys. The last minute flipping from one school to another is how this train started rolling. Both sides play the game.
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Yes, some recruits play the game and take visits/flip after committing. Some do not. We have seen a ver drastic change in kids committing to UT and NOT taking any visits after doing so vs years past. I personally have no issue with a recruit losing his "spot" if he is committed and then decides to take visits later. If he is shopping himself around, IMO it's not his spot at that point. Obviously if a recruit asks to commit to UT and CBJ accepts his commitment, then the recruit shuts his recruitment down, he is no longer "playing the game".
 
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#202
#202
LebanonVolunteer said:
Yes, some recruits play the game and take visits/flip after committing. Some do not. We have seen a ver drastic change in kids committing to UT and NOT taking any visits after doing so vs years past. I personally have no issue with a recruit losing his "spot" if he is committed and then decides to take visits later. If he is shopping himself around, IMO it's not his spot at that point. Obviously if a recruit asks to commit to UT and CBJ accepts his commitment, then the recruit shuts his recruitment down, he is no longer "playing the game".
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Truth. It goes both ways. Loyalty definitely isn't a one-way street.
 
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#203
#203
Things change quickly in recruiting. They always do. Heck just look at the last cycle:

Powell, Dews, Mouhon, Booth, Lambert, Jackson (now a walk-)on, Thomas, Brown, Lauderdale, and Lee were all part of the 2014 class at some point.

That's 1/3 of what our class ended up being and I could be forgetting some names. It's only July. Just sit back and enjoy the fun.
 
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#204
#204
volville said:
Things change quickly in recruiting. They always do. Heck just look at the last cycle:

Powell, Dews, Mouhon, Booth, Lambert, Jackson (now a walk-)on, Thomas, Brown, Lauderdale, and Lee were all part of the 2014 class at some point.

That's 1/3 of what our class ended up being and I could be forgetting some names. It's only July. Just sit back and enjoy the fun.
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+1
 
#205
#205
LebanonVolunteer said:
Yes, some recruits play the game and take visits/flip after committing. Some do not. We have seen a ver drastic change in kids committing to UT and NOT taking any visits after doing so vs years past. I personally have no issue with a recruit losing his "spot" if he is committed and then decides to take visits later. If he is shopping himself around, IMO it's not his spot at that point. Obviously if a recruit asks to commit to UT and CBJ accepts his commitment, then the recruit shuts his recruitment down, he is no longer "playing the game".
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I have no issue with your logic. The problem is we don't have the rules of the 'game'. We all just guess. You don't know the circumstances behind the broken commitments. Did Mouhon leave because he wanted to play with is brother? Or did Butch ask him to leave? Did Lawrence Lee decommit to stay closer to home? Or did Butch kick him to the curb? You (or I) have no idea. You're making ethical and moral judgments with very little verifiable information.

The same is true for the endless numbers argument. It's ridiculous to pass off semi-blind conjecture as fact. Think about what we THOUGHT we knew this time last year. VN's resident numbers 'experts' were way off. And we ended up signing a handful of players that weren't even on the radar in July.
 
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#206
#206
Mike4Vols said:
I have no issue with your logic. The problem is we don't have the rules of the 'game'. We all just guess. You don't know the circumstances behind the broken commitments. Did Mouhon leave because he wanted to play with is brother? Or did Butch ask him to leave? Did Lawrence Lee decommit to stay closer to home? Or did Butch kick him to the curb? You (or I) have no idea. You're making ethical and moral judgments with very little verifiable information.

The same is true for the endless numbers argument. It's ridiculous to pass off semi-blind conjecture as fact. Think about what we THOUGHT we knew this time last year. VN's resident numbers 'experts' were way off. And we ended up signing a handful of players that weren't even on the radar in July.
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The big difference between last class and this class(or at least what appears to be about to go down) is UTs staff did not over sign last year. They did not take so many kids on NSD that "this many" had to be processed by Aug to be under the 85 number. Now this year it does look like it is about to play out and that is when I myself have a big issue with it.

I have mentioned it several times that all the broken commitments last class could have easily been the player, grades, or other things and maybe not CBJ telling kids their offer/commitment was no longer good. I try and tell myself this staff who preaches family, character, and unity actually tries to use those values themselves in recruiting. I also keep pointing out that not a single broken commitment last class was tied to an instate recruit and those seem to be the names fans on the board keep bringing up as "drop them for the higher rated guy" talk.

I get that some fans will have no issue at all if CBJ over signs on NSD by 8-10 spots. Even at 22 today he is over by 6. This is where the ethical/moral decisions come into play and IMO are not the way he should go about doing things.

You're cool with it. I'm not. It is what it is.
 
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#207
#207
volville said:
Things change quickly in recruiting. They always do. Heck just look at the last cycle:

Powell, Dews, Mouhon, Booth, Lambert, Jackson (now a walk-)on, Thomas, Brown, Lauderdale, and Lee were all part of the 2014 class at some point.

That's 1/3 of what our class ended up being and I could be forgetting some names. It's only July. Just sit back and enjoy the fun.
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God I wish everyone would would feel like this. People are worried about numbers when it's freaking July. I have no idea how many we are going to sign. I let the coaches worry about that.
 
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#209
#209
LebanonVolunteer said:
The big difference between last class and this class(or at least what appears to be about to go down) is UTs staff did not over sign last year. They did not take so many kids on NSD that "this many" had to be processed by Aug to be under the 85 number. Now this year it does look like it is about to play out and that is when I myself have a big issue with it.

I have mentioned it several times that all the broken commitments last class could have easily been the player, grades, or other things and maybe not CBJ telling kids their offer/commitment was no longer good. I try and tell myself this staff who preaches family, character, and unity actually tries to use those values themselves in recruiting. I also keep pointing out that not a single broken commitment last class was tied to an instate recruit and those seem to be the names fans on the board keep bringing up as "drop them for the higher rated guy" talk.

I get that some fans will have no issue at all if CBJ over signs on NSD by 8-10 spots. Even at 22 today he is over by 6. This is where the ethical/moral decisions come into play and IMO are not the way he should go about doing things.

You're cool with it. I'm not. It is what it is.
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And I thought you were shopping online while all that time you were on the iPad you were really posting to VN. Lebvol has to be my wife as she's the only person in the world who can argue the same topic for that long.
 
#210
#210
Weezer said:
This post goes to show that folks who think they are experts and no one else should have an opinion are arrogant. I understand recruiting. I also understand coaching and winning.
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It's apparent that you don't. And yes, I know there's an ignore function
 
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#211
#211
Weezer said:
Did I claim to be a better fan? Do you believe you're a better fan? Some on here seem to think they are. Do you think every Vol fan needs to be in lockstep on their opinion? Some think everyone should follow blindly without question.

You don't have to see the point. You don't have to share my opinion. I'm not trying to sway you one way or the other. I stated an opinion, pure and simple. Others felt the need to attack the opinion rather than discuss it.
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Maybe it's because you're acting like little Brittany at the 8th grade prom after she sees her crush feeling up her best friend.

We get your opinion. You've stated numerous times. Then reworded it and stated it again. It's funny that all your doing is "stating an opinion, pure and simple", while others are "attacking the opinion".

But you don't mind differing opinions.
 
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#212
#212
Weezer said:
What does it mean that we've accepted the commits of so many lesser rated prospects? Have we struck out with Shy Tuttle? Drew Richmond? Any number of prospects that many on here have been drooling over? When players I haven't heard of start committing to UT(and UT accepts), I get a little alarmed. We're now at 22 commits and not all of our needs are addressed. There's still a long way to go til NSD, but have we painted ourselves into a corner? I'm not a fan of taking a young man's commit with the idea of possibly chasing him off if bigger fish come along. Why tell some of these lesser rated prospects they have a spot when those big fish are still out there? Do the coaches know we aren't going to get these bigger fish? It's worrisome IMO.

And before I set off an uproar with those that will ultimately bash me as being negative, read the thread title. You don't have to respond to every thread on VN and there is an ignore function. I'm just curious if there are others who share my concern.
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I'm not really concerned. We've seen this in the past class before, we upgraded at some positions as we went. Jones is building the best class he can but will keep recruiting and will upgrade if he can at some positions. I think some recruits are underrated and will definitely be part of this class IE Dormady. I think some are somewhat questionable especially one IMHO but I will not name names there. I think we'll be heavy on numbers anyways and wondering how everything will shake out on NSD. We'll still have a top ten class this year and will have one of the better Dline classes in the country.
 
#213
#213
Mods, can this thread's title be changed to "star gazer thread" or merged with one of the other star gazer threads? Maybe with Gibsons, as that thread has slowed down a good bit.
 
#214
#214
LebanonVolunteer said:
Are you sure? Looking at 247 and the final 2014 class rankings about 50% of the schools listed in the top 50 classes took LESS THAN 25 commitments. Obviously there are ALOT of schools who are not just "clearing things out" roster wise to make room to take a full class. So maybe it does not happen at every school?
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Recruits being told to look elsewhere after committing and full classes are not related. Even schools that have taken less than a full class have had changes between their commit list in July versus NSD. Kids change their mind, coaches get senior film, character comes into question...many reasons factor into not every commit faxing in a LOI.
 
#215
#215
BigOrangeTrain said:
God I wish everyone would would feel like this. People are worried about numbers when it's freaking July. I have no idea how many we are going to sign. I let the coaches worry about that.
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But VN knows how to run a program better than a seasoned Head Coach!
 
#216
#216
Three thoughts:

1) This is simply what recruiting has become. I don't like the oversigning/showing kids the door rules either. But it does go both ways: recruits fail to qualify, don't keep commitments, draw out the process longer than necessary, etc. I'd love to see a total overhaul on both sides of the equation, but that won't happen with the NCAA as the governing organization.

2) Obviously some star gazing going on here. I'll admit I have some gazer in me too - the first thing I do when a 2 or 3 star commits is look at the other offers and read what the 'experts' say. A handful are definitely favored to get a bump to 4 stars. Also, as Butch has already shown - this staff has a knack for getting in early on recruits (before the services have truly evaluated).

3) Butch could literally stop recruiting now and he'd have the best back-to-back classes since the early 90s.
 
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#217
#217
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#218
#218
Weezer said:
Having an early signing period would definitely make things interesting. It would change the face of recruiting significantly IMO.
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It would definitely be interesting but I think in the end, an early signing period in football is a misguided effort that tilts the advantage to the coaches and schools even more than it already is with how the LOI and Transfer Rules work (unless the recruit can back out).

Also, I'd imagine that with an early signing period, the coaches end up going after kids that show out during their junior year in HS and in summer camps. Many schools would fill their class and the kids that were injured junior year or those kids that have a stellar senior year get relegated to lower level schools.
 
#220
#220
UTChicagoV said:
It would definitely be interesting but I think in the end, an early signing period in football is a misguided effort that tilts the advantage to the coaches and schools even more than it already is with how the LOI and Transfer Rules work (unless the recruit can back out).

Also, I'd imagine that with an early signing period, the coaches end up going after kids that show out during their junior year in HS and in summer camps. Many schools would fill their class and the kids that were injured junior year or those kids that have a stellar senior year get relegated to lower level schools.
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The main reasons I am all for an early signing period is all the slow play tactics would be more less gone. If the coach says you can't sign, it's clear where you stand on his board as a recruit. Also it would help coaches lock in players at certain positions so they can then focus on others rather than worry about keeping the "committed" guys in the fold.
 
#221
#221
I think it's simply too early to even assess what this class will be come NSD. Rankings, ratings, class composition, etc will change so much between now and then.
 
#222
#222
DaddyChad said:
I think it's simply too early to even assess what this class will be come NSD. Rankings, ratings, class composition, etc will change so much between now and then.
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So much this... Add in a 7 or dare I say,an 8 win season, and you will have to beat recruits away from coming... If we have learned anything from a full CBJ recruiting year,some of us have not apparently, is that everything is fluid and can change at the drop of a hat... He is constantly trying to upgrade, at every position
 
#223
#223
Exfix said:
The original point of the OP was a healthy dose of skepticism for bringing in a 5'10" 4.7 CB (for example) when we have more pressing needs on limited space. My point is the remaining spots should be saved for big names. It will probably work itself out. The rest of VN can carry on with the usual name calling and "Butch gets it!" To anyone with a dissenting opinion.
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Do you honestly think that someone who is paid millions of dollars to assemble and coach a winning football team is not aware of what his needs are and what big names he needs? Do you honestly believe that he has no plan and is taking these guys because now because they are the best that he's going to do and needs to strike while the iron is hot? Do you honestly believe that it will not work out, numbers-wise and stars-wise, come February? Do you honestly believe....

never mind.
 
#224
#224
Weezer said:
For the big names to have a spot, room will have to be made. That potentially means turning away players you have accepted commitments from. I know many on here have no problem with that idea, but some of us do. Some of us still come from a background where a man's word means something. Keeping it is keeping your integrity. I won't claim to know what's going on behind the scenes and what's being said to these young men, but if you accept their pledge knowing you may renege at a later date to get better talent(and they aren't made aware of this), then it isn't right IMO. I want to win, but not at the expense where we hinder a young man's future. If he commits to UT and shuts down the process thinking he's guaranteed a scholarship(provided he maintain his grades and not get into trouble), then he should not be recruited over.

That may not be a popular viewpoint, but it is my viewpoint. To trust a man, his word has to mean something.
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I think that Butch still is honest with these kids he takes a commitment from. He would have to be or would lose credibility. I am guessing that he is very upfront with them and lays it out most, if not all, possible scenarios for them, before agreeing to take their "commitment." That obviously works both ways as I recall a player from last year, Corey Thomas, I think it was, saying something like "I am committed to Tennessee but Clemson leads." Commitment simply does not mean the same thing in college football recruiting that it does most everywhere else in life.
 
#225
#225
Weezer said:
Not only that, it would also be telling who a coach let sign early, and who they didn't allow to sign early. Some recruits might find out where they actually stand. Coaches would have to be more selective with truly committable offers IMO.
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I agree that this would be a step in the right direction.
 
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