The Pessimist Thread

#176
#176
LebanonVolunteer said:
Are you sure? Looking at 247 and the final 2014 class rankings about 50% of the schools listed in the top 50 classes took LESS THAN 25 commitments. Obviously there are ALOT of schools who are not just "clearing things out" roster wise to make room to take a full class. So maybe it does not happen at every school?
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Are they rebuilding? Have they had the worst stretch in school history? Most of those teams have already established depth.

Look at Saban's and Freeze's first 2 classes. They took more than 25.

If you want a team that doesn't recruit this way then you should probably starting rooting for Carson Newman
 
#177
#177
StlCardinals2618 said:
Are they rebuilding? Have they had the worst stretch in school history? Most of those teams have already established depth.

Look at Saban's and Freeze's first 2 classes. They took more than 25.

If you want a team that doesn't recruit this way then you should probably starting rooting for Carson Newman
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Just pointing out that your claims that "every school does it" is just not accurate at all. When half the classes in the top 50 ranking wise is not dropping enough kids to take the "max" yearly, saying every school does it is not correct.
 
#178
#178
LebanonVolunteer said:
Just pointing out that your claims that "every school does it" is just not accurate at all. When half the classes in the top 50 ranking wise is not dropping enough kids to take the "max" yearly, saying every school does it is not correct.
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Yes every school does it. Its 100% correct. Whether its with 25 or 15. If a better player wants on board when the numbers are tight, someone will be let go. Usually the coaches pushes them to another school. Do you know how many transfers happen a year at each school?

Recruit says, "so and so wants me to visit." The coaches say, "go ahead and visit and thats usually how it happens." Everyone is happy. Recruits want playing time more than anything. It becomes a problem when you do it less than a week before signing day.
 
#179
#179
StlCardinals2618 said:
Yes every school does it. Its 100% correct. Whether its with 25 or 15. If a better player wants on board when the numbers are tight, someone will be let go. Usually the coaches pushes them to another school. Do you know how many transfers happen a year at each school?

Recruit says, "so and so wants me to visit." The coaches say, "go ahead and visit and thats usually how it happens." Everyone is happy. Recruits want playing time more than anything. It becomes a problem when you do it less than a week before signing day.
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So you feel that of those 25 schools in the top 50 who did not take 25 or more in 2014, it's because they could not find anyone good enough to take? Really?

Ohio St, A&M, UGA, AU, USC, ND, Stanford, USCe, TX, UCLA, Clemson, OR, all could not find quality talent to take 25? Interesting take.

Or maybe those coaches did not feel like "processing" enough kids to take a full 25?
 
#180
#180
LebanonVolunteer said:
So you feel that of those 25 schools in the top 50 who did not take 25 or more in 2014, it's because they could not find anyone good enough to take? Really?

Ohio St, A&M, UGA, AU, USC, ND, Stanford, USCe, TX, UCLA, Clemson, OR, all could not find quality talent to take 25? Interesting take.

Or maybe those coaches did not feel like "processing" enough kids to take a full 25?
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Urban Meyer took over one of the greatest coaches in OSU history. Tressel was also a great recruiter.

Kevin Sumlin took 31 in his first year at aTm, it was controversial because they were technically in the SEC, but didn't have to follow the rules.

Marc Richt has been at UGA for over 10 years and they still took 33 in 2013.

Guz Malzahn recruited all those guys for his offense, not to mention Gene Chizik recruited lights out at AU. He didn't have to do a lot processing.

USC has been under sanctions, and I think this is the first year they aren't

David Shaw took over Jim Harbaugh, I think they are fine on depth and don't have to make room.

Spurrier has been at USCjr for almost 10 years. All the guys were recruited and developed in his system. He doesn't need full classes.

Mack Brown was considered the greatest recruiter of the state of Texas and Charlie Strong is recruiting terrible right now.

Swinney took 29 in 2011 and 26 his first year.

Rick Neuheisel brought a lot talent to UCLA, he just couldn't coach it. UCLA has been shelling out draft picks for a while now.

Oregon has had 2 great coaches in Chip Kelly and Mike Belloti. They have been recruiting well for a while now.


Butch won't take a full 25 each year. He will only do it when he has room. He has room for 25 this year.
 
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#181
#181
StlCardinals2618 said:
Urban Meyer took over one of the greatest coaches in OSU history. Tressel was also a great recruiter.

Kevin Sumlin took 31 in his first year at aTm, it was controversial because they were technically in the SEC, but didn't have to follow the rules.

Marc Richt has been at UGA for over 10 years and they still took 33 in 2013.

Guz Malzahn recruited all those guys for his offense, not to mention Gene Chizik recruited lights out at AU. He didn't have to do a lot processing.

USC has been under sanctions, and I think this is the first year they aren't

David Shaw took over Jim Harbaugh, I think they are fine on depth and don't have to make room.

Spurrier has been at USCjr for almost 10 years. All the guys were recruited and developed in his system. He doesn't need full classes.

Mack Brown was considered the greatest recruiter of the state of Texas and Charlie Strong is recruiting terrible right now.

Swinney took 29 in 2011 and 26 his first year.

Rick Neuheisel brought a lot talent to UCLA, he just couldn't coach it. UCLA has been shelling out draft picks for a while now.

Oregon has had 2 great coaches in Chip Kelly and Mike Belloti. They have been recruiting well for a while now.


Butch won't take a full 25 each year. He will only do it when he has room. He has room for 25 this year.
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Actually he does not. He has room for 16. To get to 25, 9 kids would have to be processed.

You said every school does it. I just pointed out that in 2014, over half the top 50 classes DID NOT do it.

I would once again place a large wager on the majority of the folks saying "take a full class no matter what, cut the dead weight" today, has that same opinion EVERY year and not just "until Butch can rebuild the roster". I'm sure you have noted a large portion of the fans on this board are already figuring on 25 for next year. That's processing another 9 kids after processing the 9 this year. If CBJ takes 25 in 2015, that means he has signed 79 of the 85 kids on the scholarship roster yet the "fans" want to see enough kids processed to keep the signees rolling in. IMO, that's a mistake.
 
#182
#182
LebanonVolunteer said:
Actually he does not. He has room for 16. To get to 25, 9 kids would have to be processed.

You said every school does it. I just pointed out that in 2014, over half the top 50 classes DID NOT do it.

I would once again place a large wager on the majority of the folks saying "take a full class no matter what, cut the dead weight" today, has that same opinion EVERY year and not just "until Butch can rebuild the roster". I'm sure you have noted a large portion of the fans on this board are already figuring on 25 for next year. That's processing another 9 kids after processing the 9 this year. If CBJ takes 25 in 2015, that means he has signed 79 of the 85 kids on the scholarship roster yet the "fans" want to see enough kids processed to keep the signees rolling in. IMO, that's a mistake.
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He has room for a full class. Players will leave on their own accord like Posey, Dallas, Brown, Hill etc. Players don't want to sit on the bench their whole career. Most will either give up football or transfer to a smaller school. I don't see why a kid has to stay at a school for 4 years when he won't play and is getting beat out.

Do you honestly think UT is the only school with transfers?
 
#183
#183
StlCardinals2618 said:
He has room for a full class. Players will leave on their own accord like Posey, Dallas, Brown, Hill etc. Players don't want to sit on the bench their whole career. Most will either give up football or transfer to a smaller school. I don't see why a kid has to stay at a school for 4 years when he won't play and is getting beat out.

Do you honestly think UT is the only school with transfers?
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Of course I expect to see a few kids decide to leave UT on their own each year. Do I think a coach can over sign a class by 9 on NSD having no idea how many will actually leave between NSD and Aug and do it with good intentions? I don't. If a coach over signs by that many he is setting himself up to look like the bad guy. It looks to me like that is exactly what CBJ plans to do. I do hope he can avoid screwing the pooch with the decision and making UT look bad in the process.

Over signing by 1-2 is one thing. Over signing by 8-10 is questionable ethics IMO.
 
#184
#184
Diceman said:
You stated an opinion, and I stated mine, as have several others. If you're going to knowingly go against the grain, and IMO logic and common sense, you should probably have thicker skin. Most of your responses mention the fact that it's your opinion and you have a right to express it and no one needs to respond. It comes off like your feelings are hurt, and like you're not taking into account the fact that everyone else is expressing their opinions as well.
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What you fail to take into account is I've been trying to remain respectful while others have not. I have not been 100% successful, but I could easily have turned this into a pure troll job and chose not to do so.

My feelings aren't hurt in any way. Nothing on this site hurts my feelings. If VN has that effect on you, then you take this place too seriously.
 
#185
#185
LebanonVolunteer said:
Of course I expect to see a few kids decide to leave UT on their own each year. Do I think a coach can over sign a class by 9 on NSD having no idea how many will actually leave between NSD and Aug and do it with good intentions? I don't. If a coach over signs by that many he is setting himself up to look like the bad guy. It looks to me like that is exactly what CBJ plans to do. I do hope he can avoid screwing the pooch with the decision and making UT look bad in the process.

Over signing by 1-2 is one thing. Over signing by 8-10 is questionable ethics IMO.
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Look, recruiting is a dirty business, like it or not. We have no idea what happens behind closed doors. One poster was correct: ALL winning schools make tough recruiting and roster decisions at some point. Maybe not every year ... but they all do it. These men make a lot of money and they like their big houses and nice cars. If you don't think ALL of them will do some unscrupulous things to keep that job, you are naive.

In his brief time here, Butch has shown the ability recruit known talent (Hurd and Malone) while also digging up diamonds in the rough (Thomas and Moseley). At this point, he's earned some leeway with recruiting decisions.

On the field? Not yet....
 
#186
#186
Mike4Vols said:
Look, recruiting is a dirty business, like it or not. We have no idea what happens behind closed doors. One poster was correct: ALL winning schools make tough recruiting and roster decisions at some point. Maybe not every year ... but they all do it. These men make a lot of money and they like their big houses and nice cars. If you don't think ALL of them will do some unscrupulous things to keep that job, you are naive.

In his brief time here, Butch has shown the ability recruit known talent (Hurd and Malone) while also digging up diamonds in the rough (Thomas and Moseley). At this point, he's earned some leeway with recruiting decisions.

On the field? Not yet....
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I suppose I'd rather see the coaches spending time developing the talent on campus and less time trying to push it out the door. Maybe then we would see a little less of the "dirty business".

As we all know the same kids the fans on this board are BOOMING about today, will be calling for them to be processed within 12-18 months if they are not All SEC. Plays out the same every year.
 
#187
#187
LebanonVolunteer said:
I suppose I'd rather see the coaches spending time developing the talent on campus and less time trying to push it out the door. Maybe then we would see a little less of the "dirty business".

As we all know the same kids the fans on this board are BOOMING about today, will be calling for them to be processed within 12-18 months if they are not All SEC. Plays out the same every year.
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As long as coaches are at the mercy of 17 year old kids (i.e. forever), recruiting will be a dirty business. It's just fact. If Josh Sweat wants to attend UT on signing day, Jones will make room for him. As would Saban. And Meyer. And Richt. Kids aren't bound to the school until they sign. Neither are the coaches. It's life.
 
#188
#188
It has to be tough on Butch and staff working hard recruiting and not really knowing the fruits of their labor until NSD.
 
#189
#189
Slydell said:
It has to be tough on Butch and staff working hard recruiting and not really knowing the fruits of their labor until NSD.
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Having an early signing period would definitely make things interesting. It would change the face of recruiting significantly IMO.
 
#191
#191
Slydell said:
It has to be tough on Butch and staff working hard recruiting and not really knowing the fruits of their labor until NSD.
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Looking at the class and the amount of current commits who have 100% shut things down and are helping to recruit for UT IMO allows the staff to enjoy today the work they have put in thus far. NSD is enjoyable for them all no doubt, but there are a lot of enjoyable wins recruiting wise throughout the whole process I'd imagine.
 
#192
#192
Weezer said:
Having an early signing period would definitely make things interesting. It would change the face of recruiting significantly IMO.
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If the kid has his grades and test scores in order, I say let him sign early. As a coach the sooner I know I can count a position filled for my class and focus on others, the better.
 
#195
#195
LebanonVolunteer said:
If the kid has his grades and test scores in order, I say let him sign early. As a coach the sooner I know I can count a position filled for my class and focus on others, the better.
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Not only that, it would also be telling who a coach let sign early, and who they didn't allow to sign early. Some recruits might find out where they actually stand. Coaches would have to be more selective with truly committable offers IMO.
 
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#196
#196
Weezer said:
Having an early signing period would definitely make things interesting. It would change the face of recruiting significantly IMO.
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I agree. Would be nice to change the rule and eliminate the great signing day crap. You commit, sign here.
 
#197
#197
Weezer said:
Not only that, it would also be telling who a coach let sign early, and who they didn't allow to sign early. Some recruits might find out where they actually stand. Coaches would have to be more selective with truly committable offers IMO.
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Great point. I am all for anything that lets a recruit know where they actually stand rather them buying into the "coach speak" and trusting what a coach says and none of it is true. With all the recruits who have tried to commit to UT and them not actually being takes, obviously it is going on a lot with our staff.

Kind of the reason I said a while ago the 1st question a UT recruit should ask CBJ upon being offered is "would you take my commitment today"? If the answer is no, you know where you stand very quickly.
 
#198
#198
LebanonVolunteer said:
Great point. I am all for anything that lets a recruit know where they actually stand rather them buying into the "coach speak" and trusting what a coach says and none of it is true. With all the recruits who have tried to commit to UT and them not actually being takes, obviously it is going on a lot with our staff.

Kind of the reason I said a while ago the 1st question a UT recruit should ask CBJ upon being offered is "would you take my commitment today"? If the answer is no, you know where you stand very quickly.
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Don't portray the recruits as choir boys. The last minute flipping from one school to another is how this train started rolling. Both sides play the game.
 
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#199
#199
Mike4Vols said:
Don't portray the recruits as choir boys. The last minute flipping from one school to another is how this train started rolling. Both sides play the game.
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Nobody is innocent. People like to think the recruit is innocent because they think its a right to play college ball. It's not a right, it is a privilege, and privilege can be revoked.
 
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