The you don't want to get involved in this discussion thread (split)

#401
#401
BlueHalo said:
I'm not either. I just feel that one side gets misrepresented as being unintelligent, about as much as the other side gets credit for being more educated.

As cwbytruckers so clearly shows, that is not at all the reality of the situation.

You can't preach open-mindedness and acceptance of sub-cultures, and then turn your head and make fun of someone for their religion. Drives me crazy how people use hot button phrases to fit their agenda when the moment suits their purpose. These people are as selective in their acceptance of others as the people they condemn.

Edit: didn't mean to be condescending at all. Literally just wanted to make a point that everything was theory. My bad, I can see how it would be taken that way.
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I don't disagree with any of that. It's taking the easy way out to label anyone with your opposite point of view as unintelligent and painting with a very wide and unfair brush. Intelligence and lack thereof can be found on both sides.

Also I completely agree with your acceptance comment. I may not agree with all of the facets of Christianity, but I have no problem with people who are devout Christians (and have many friends who are). I don't think it's any more acceptable to marginalize them than any other group.

I completely see what you were getting at now. No offense taken.
 
#406
#406
Lol. Literally couldn't care less about the sexual preferences of any athlete, but I have to admit the second I saw the news I was excited to see the responses/breakdowns on Volnation.

People are being surprisingly very accepting in this thread though, pretty sweet. UTvols74's post on "genital sharing" and predatory gays in bathrooms doesn't disappoint though.

Edit: why is this in the recruiting forum? Us recruiting forum folk have always been above meaningless threads I thought. Let's leave that to the football forum
 
#407
#407
tim said:
Its not that I dont understand your explanation. I dont accept it. Sexuality is not what defines a person.
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Sexuality should not be what defines a person's character, but we live in a society that judges gay men and women to have "poor" character because they do not conform to societal norms. If gays were not made to be felt inferior, they would not feel the need to fight back against society and make such an issue when they came out. Hell, they would never have to come out because they would never have felt the need to hide it. The simple truth is that until society reaches a point where being gay is accepted as nothing to be ashamed of, high profile individuals will continue to use their platform to fight for gay rights.

And before you state that gays are accepted as a whole in society, please note that these threads always include the mumblers with their "I don't agree with their choice, but..." That's not true acceptance. People are still saying they're somehow wrong for being who they are. It's like someone mumbling, "I don't like his skin color, but..." Bias like that is still bigotry.

I am not gay, but if I had to guess, most gays would not want to be defined by their sexuality. Society defines them by their sexuality.

As it pertains to the player involved, I applaud his coming out now, before the draft. If he had waited until after, he would have been accused of hiding the truth. Or if it had come out on its own that he was gay, rumors would run rampant over him hiding it from his teammates, as if he was getting his jollies in the shower room. He chose the correct path of addressing the issue now, putting himself out there, knowing full well it could cost his draft status and open him up to the judgement of society. He did the right thing by being honest, yet somehow you still question his character. Personally, it's not his character I question.
 
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#408
#408
RockVol said:
Sorry, tried to stay away, but couldn't.

Romans 1:26-28

"For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done."

The bible says it is a choice, so you cannot be upset with Christians for believing that it is a choice since our Holy Book says that it is.
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Except that's about pagan temple prostitutes engaging in ritual sex to worship a pagan deity and not about teh gays. Paul was instructing converts who knew nothing of the Jewish notion of a single God and who were culturally used to Roman paganism and worshiping many gods at once. For them it was natural to add Jesus and Jesus Worship to their list of Gods to worship as they were unused to the notion of monotheism. In fact one of the reasons Christians were sometimes executed was because they were considered atheists because they refused to honor or acknowledge the Roman gods.

This refusal was problematic for the Romans because the Romans required everyone to participate in certain functions -- they believed that one member of a community not participating and insulting a god could bring down the wrath of that god and result in punishment (famine, plague, destruction etc.) of the entire community over it (that was actually a fairly common belief in Judaism and Christianity too - one member could screw it up for an entire community).

In this instance, we don't even have to get into the Greek which itself puts this myth to rest as it's pretty obvious when you're not cherry-picking. Look at the verses just before it (24 and 25):

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
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And when you actually read ALL of the stuff that comes before 26-27 it doesn't take a genius to figure out what Paul's addressing yet people love to take things out of context while simultaneously claiming removing the surrounding verses makes for an authoritative literal meaning. In fact, removing 26-27 and presenting those verses out of context presents a very misleading interpretation of Paul and does so by completely changing the meaning. Paul is chastising the Romans and warning them against pagan temple rites.
 
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#410
#410
UTProf said:
Except that's about pagan temple prostitutes engaging in ritual sex to worship a pagan deity and not about teh gays. Paul was instructing converts who knew nothing of the Jewish notion of a single God and who were culturally used to Roman paganism and worshiping many gods at once. For them it was natural to add Jesus and Jesus Worship to their list of Gods to worship as they were unused to the notion of monotheism. In fact one of the reasons Christians were sometimes executed was because they were considered atheists because they refused to honor or acknowledge the Roman gods.

This refusal was problematic for the Romans because the Romans required everyone to participate in certain functions -- they believed that one member of a community not participating and insulting a god could bring down the wrath of that god and result in punishment (famine, plague, destruction etc.) of the entire community over it (that was actually a fairly common belief in Judaism and Christianity too - one member could screw it up for an entire community).

In this instance, we don't even have to get into the Greek which itself puts this myth to rest as it's pretty obvious when you're not cherry-picking. Look at the verses just before it (24 and 25):



And when you actually read ALL of the stuff that comes before 26-27 it doesn't take a genius to figure out what Paul's addressing yet people love to take things out of context while simultaneously claiming removing the surrounding verses makes for an authoritative literal meaning. In fact, removing 26-27 and presenting those verses out of context presents a very misleading interpretation of Paul and does so by completely changing the meaning. Paul is chastising the Romans and warning them against pagan temple rites.
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You really need to get a grip on your sales pitch. God has been really clear about where he stands on the homosexual issue. From the statements of it as being sinful to the redemption part of acknowledgement and confession of sin, to repentance. So if you are going to misrepresent his word, you have joined the camp against him.

The passage given in Romans 1 is developing the theme of righteousness from God. Paul is stating all have sinned and therefore need righteousness that only God can provide. He did provide that path through the acknowledgement of sin, confession of sin and understanding of the need for redemption, acceptance of the sin offering in the person of Jesus Christ. He identifies the sins for the Gentiles and the Jews and summarizes them leading into the verses you and the poster quoted.

God abandons those bent on personal desires contrary to his design and nature because they have placed those desires above him. You are to have no God above him, OT, and to love him with all your heart, soul and mind, NT (Jesus). Those are commands, not suggestions. People of that mind that do not do those things are effectively stating I know more than you, God, and I will do what I want. Not much unlike parent/child relationships of many humans. Even a naturalist can figure out that homosexuality dooms procreation without "science" being involved to circumvent the process. The circumvention is also sinful, but not the child produced from it since there was no personal participation or choice in the matter. But what do you expect from a society and world that views the murder of its unborn future as a person's "right" to choose death or life for another. Again, nothing new under the sun in our "progressive" world. That stuff is as old as the hills.
 
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#411
#411
tim said:
Im straight. Why do we care where his weenie goes?
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Agree. On one hand he's coming out, making this groundbreaking, earth-shattering announcement that everybody needs to know about.

On the other hand he says it doesn't matter, no one should care, he's just there to help a team win a championship.

Which is it?

I've seen players say/tweet that they've played with other gay players in the past, that they don't care as long they've been a good teammate who helps the team win. So why is this a big deal? Answer..... politics and media. The media's been salivating for this moment for years and the politicians and political groups can't wait to make hay and fundraise. Just the way it is.
 
#412
#412
KBVol said:
Agree. On one hand he's coming out, making this groundbreaking, earth-shattering announcement that everybody needs to know about.

On the other hand he says it doesn't matter, no one should care, he's just there to help a team win a championship.

Which is it?

I've seen players say/tweet that they've played with other gay players in the past, that they don't care as long they've been a good teammate who helps the team win. So why is this a big deal? Answer..... politics and media. The media's been salivating for this moment for years and the politicians and political groups can't wait to make hay and fundraise. Just the way it is.
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I get this sentiment for pretty much anybody but NFL players. The stigma attached to the NFL is that it's full of homophobes who wouldn't tolerate working with an openly gay person. That's why there's never been an openly gay NFL player and that's why it's a big deal.

It's not a big deal because of Sam himself and his lifestyle. It's a big deal because no one knows if NFL players and coaches are open minded enough to not let Sam's lifestyle get in the way of work.

I think NFL players and coaches are more open minded than they get credit for and Sam will be fine as long as he takes care of business on the field though and this will be a non-issue a year or two down the road.

Plus, the first person to do ANYTHING gets a lot of publicity. When was the last time you had a history class that taught about the third expedition to the moon or the 5th African American to play in the MLB?

As long as NFL personnel are tolerant of Sam, no openly gay NFL player will ever get this much publicity again (for being gay at least).
 
#413
#413
I turned on the TV and it was on NBC and the 1st story they mentioned was then. Then I flipped over to Mike & Mike and Golic said something to the effect that he wished it was a non-issue.

Well, as long as every media outlet is shoving this "non-issue" down our throats then it's going to be an issue.
 
#414
#414
KBVol said:
Agree. On one hand he's coming out, making this groundbreaking, earth-shattering announcement that everybody needs to know about.

On the other hand he says it doesn't matter, no one should care, he's just there to help a team win a championship.

Which is it?

I've seen players say/tweet that they've played with other gay players in the past, that they don't care as long they've been a good teammate who helps the team win. So why is this a big deal? Answer..... politics and media. The media's been salivating for this moment for years and the politicians and political groups can't wait to make hay and fundraise. Just the way it is.
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While he states it shouldn't matter he knows it does matter, and it will matter until athletes don't feel the need to hide their sexuality. He just wishes we were a mature enough society that it didn't matter. It is funny you are blaming him instead of blaming the culture that makes he feel this way. I do believe in my lifetime it not matter anymore. So I guess you will get your wish one day.

Politics? This is a political issue. Despite the great Barry Goldwater telling the Republican party to stay out of the hip pocket of the Religious Right, they didn't listen and went for votes (just like the Democrats did by taking the other side). So until Gay Marriage is not longer an issue, it will be part of politics for both sides.

I hope this starts to open the doors of other athletes coming out. Given the suicide rate among gay youth, they need positive role models.

Boca Vol said:
I turned on the TV and it was on NBC and the 1st story they mentioned was then. Then I flipped over to Mike & Mike and Golic said something to the effect that he wished it was a non-issue.

Well, as long as every media outlet is shoving this "non-issue" down our throats then it's going to be an issue.
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It is an issue, because bigots and zealots made it one first. So there you go.
 
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#415
#415
You guys are intolerant for not believing homosexuals are right. I am tolerant for not believing the Bible is right. Makes sense. Welcome to America 2014.

Everything in life is a choice. Today I get to choose if I want to be faithful to my wife, I get to choose if I fulfill my desire to stuff my face with foods that are killing me, I get to choose if I let me anger get the best of me.

The I was born this way angle lacks common sense and practical reason. I was born attracted to a lot of women. Doesn't mean I get to say I was a born an unfaithful man. I choose what desires and impulses define my life.
 
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#416
#416
volprof said:
Fair enough, but please stop eating the pork and certain types of seafood if you currently do so.
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To simply correct this side of the argument what you are referencing is Jewish culture and Old Testament law. According to Christian beliefs Christ came to fulfill the law by being sinless and dying for our sins because no human could fulfill all aspects of that law. In so doing the law and it's requirements were removed and belief in Christ established. This belief doesn't then give freedom to continue in a sin as Paul says in Romans 6 but where sin is grace abounds for the person. If we want to believe in Christ that doesn't make us a hater of everyone. Some may (and in this thread it looks like there are a few).

As I said in another thread 1 cor 6:9-10 clearly states homosexuality to be a sin to keep one from heaven. In the same passage it also lists liars, drunkards, etc. It also states that God's grace is there to cover that sin should one repent from said sin.

If someone wants to believe it to be a sin then that is their free will to choose to believe just as much as you have a free will to choose not to believe.

I will state my opinion and understanding of Scripture and you may decide to disagree or agree. I do not hate you if you choose to not believe it.

As someone mentioned above though I don't understand how screaming tolerance yet bashing another for disagreeing with your position is tolerant of anything. I certainly am against hate that comes out of a lot of people professing Christ. Paul says in Corinthians if you don't have love you are just a clanging symbol. So I hope that the tone of my writing comes across how I mean it to.

Always good to have discussions even if you disagree
 
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#418
#418
jordan4vols said:
To simply correct this side of the argument what you are referencing is Jewish culture and Old Testament law. According to Christian beliefs Christ came to fulfill the law by being sinless and dying for our sins because no human could fulfill all aspects of that law. In so doing the law and it's requirements were removed and belief in Christ established. This belief doesn't then give freedom to continue in a sin as Paul says in Romans 6 but where sin is grace abounds for the person. If we want to believe in Christ that doesn't make us a hater of everyone. Some may (and in this thread it looks like there are a few).

As I said in another thread 1 cor 6:9-10 clearly states homosexuality to be a sin to keep one from heaven. In the same passage it also lists liars, drunkards, etc. It also states that God's grace is there to cover that sin should one repent from said sin.

If someone wants to believe it to be a sin then that is their free will to choose to believe just as much as you have a free will to choose not to believe.

I will state my opinion and understanding of Scripture and you may decide to disagree or agree. I do not hate you if you choose to not believe it.

As someone mentioned above though I don't understand how screaming tolerance yet bashing another for disagreeing with your position is tolerant of anything. I certainly am against hate that comes out of a lot of people professing Christ. Paul says in Corinthians if you don't have love you are just a clanging symbol. So I hope that the tone of my writing comes across how I mean it to.

Always good to have discussions even if you disagree
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Paul was also single his whole life and super jealy-mad tht everybody but him was getting pootietang. Dude just figured that if he couldn't get any than nobody should be allowed to.

Not a reliable narrator in IMO.
 
#419
#419
Vol Karma said:
No incorrect. While some chose to be part of the gay lifestyle, most are born that way and have no choice. Still I get your point.
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What reason other than a person saying so do you have that someone is born gay? I'm not saying you don't have one. I'm just interested.
 
#420
#420
Darth_Shiveman said:
Paul was also single his whole life and super jealy-mad tht everybody but him was getting pootietang. Dude just figured that if he couldn't get any than nobody should be allowed to.

Not a reliable narrator in IMO.
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He did say that it was better to marry than burn with lust... But men should try to remain as he was (unmarried).... I had to marry
 
#421
#421
Ron Swanson said:
You ever met a gay person? Any gay people in your family? Have any gay friends? I know a few gay people and I'll 100% guarantee you they didn't chose to be gay, they were born that way.

You lost me at fact.
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He never said chose was a fact. You are picking words to fit your argument. He said the fact was that you will stand before your Creator and answer for what you do.
 
#425
#425
VOLout8 said:
What reason other than a person saying so do you have that someone is born gay? I'm not saying you don't have one. I'm just interested.
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There is no 100% proof either way yet. I found that you can pull 'proof' or 'theories' depending on which side of the debate you want to take (kind of like Global Warming). It is something I just know in my gut (and I also feel it is not the case every time). It is fact that most of us can meet a stranger and have our 'gaydar' go off. It is the discrimination that gays deal with on a daily basis (no one would choose that). It is the struggle I have seen in gay Christians in dealing with their sexuality and faith. I could go on and on.
 
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