The you don't want to get involved in this discussion thread (split)

[volpreacher]

Hey, after we die, we get to sit in a hole in the ground! Forever!

You may, but I'm going into a place where there is no heartache, pain, suffering, death. A place called Heaven. I hope you seek Jesus that will give you the hope you deserve. :yes:

 

[AboveAllNations]

I am also interested in this 'born that way' logic. I agree with another poster above in that most of our lives consist of choices, not innate born that way responses.

I think we've had enough experience with "ex-gays" who've attempted reparative therapy to know that sexual orientation is something that cannot be changed. An overwhelming consensus of psychologists and health organizations agree, and have cautioned that attempts to reverse or repress a person's natural sexual orientation often cause tremendous psychological harm.

The fact that gay people are born gay is important for several reasons. First, it underscores that sexual orientation is an immutable characteristic (like race or gender) that a person cannot help and cannot control. This makes laws attacking gay rights (e.g., prohibiting same-sex marriage, allowing employers to fire employees for being gay, etc) unfair and discriminatory.

Second, it undermines the homophobic propaganda that gay people are trying to "recruit" other people to be gay too. Turning a straight person gay won't work any better than trying to turn a gay person straight, and nobody would know this better than gays and lesbians! For those straight people who may disagree, do you seriously think you could "choose" to be gay if you wanted to? Unless you're bisexual, the answer is no.

Finally, the innate nature of sexual orientation is important because it rejects the notion that homosexuality is a temporary phase or disorder that can be "fixed" with treatment. As I said earlier, almost all secular health organization recognize homosexuality as a natural occurance in a minority of any given population. There are animal species which exhibit homosexual behavior, and many geniuses have accomplished amazing things (e.g., Alexander the Great, Tchaikovsky, maybe Abraham Lincoln) while being gay.

People like Michael Sam have nothing to apologize for, and no reason to hide who they are.

 

[utvolpj]

I completely agree with you on all accounts. There is a tremendous drop out rate in churches compared to that of the '60's, 70's, and 80's. My church alone has seen a dropout rate of 35% in the past 3 years of our members. It is mostly the teenage crowd that drops out. Some return, most don't. However, I feel it is more than a coincidence that all the issues fade mentioned have been increased in the recent years, and many churches are having dropouts. I never said there aren't good people that do not attend church. There are plenty of amazing people that do not attend church. The dropout rates in schools are very alarming as well, but to your argument of the world becoming less intelligent, there are more students these days graduating college than there have ever been in the past.

there are simply more students graduating with worthless degrees from dumbed down colleges. No matter what they tell HS students, not everyone is college material.

IMO educated people are likely to make fewer mistakes than uneducated ones. Has nothing to do with religion

 

[wU-Tang Vol]

You may, but I'm going into a place where there is no heartache, pain, suffering, death. A place called Heaven. I hope you seek Jesus that will give you the hope you deserve. :yes:

It was a joke. I am a Christian. I have a strong belief in Christ

 

[SCvol333]

the persecuted Christian is one of the weakest arguments being peddled today. Only second behind the poor, persecuted white male



that's great but morals can be separate from religion. You attempt to tie the 2 together which is ridiculous

It actually seems highly correlated - just not in the way that fade suggested

the more religious a society is the more brutal and violent it tends to be

I am not sure if it is causal but the correlation seems very strong

I think it would be an easy argument to make that if we could see a 40-50% drop in global churchgoing rates we would likely also see a significant and proportional drop in global violent deaths

 

[DAVOL]

Why are some people so against the idea that maybe they weren't born gay?

I do not personally believe that people are not born gay, I believe that circumstances in life lead people to believe that they are gay. Can I prove it 100%? No. Can you prove me wrong 100%? No. This is what I choose to believe. That is the great thing about this country. We can agree to disagree.

I am a Christian and a pastor, I will not run up screaming and yelling that they are sinners going to hell because that isn't what Jesus would do. I believe in using compassion, friendship, love and trust to prove that just because we want to do something doesn't mean we have to is the proper way. The bible states that being gay is a sin, just as living with and having sexual relations out of wedlock is a sin, just as lusting after a man or woman, just as gluttony and not providing for you family is a sin. Sin is a choice, and we all have to choose between what is written as right and wrong in God's Word. We also must deal with those consequences.

I do want to say though thanks for all you bring to the board Ron. I appreciate your attitude and your positive mindset towards the team. Keep up the good work.

All the gays I have ever known tell me they were born that way so what gives me as straight man the information to tell them they are wrong sort of like a man with sight telling a blind man what it is like to be blind.

 

[utvolpj]

The thing is homosexuality is a sin and you are right, it isn't worse than any other sin.

again that's simply your opinion. You can't define sin for others, only yourself.

Where it does fall into a different category is: Most people who commit sin and want to live a Christian life ask forgiveness for that sin when they commit it. People living and practicing homosexuality are continuing to live in it and thus want us to say, well it's ok, we're all sinners. They aren't seeking forgiveness of their wrong. A homosexual that refuses to give in to their sin, can be forgiven.

which is very convenient for the straight sinners huh? Without the ability to be forgiven for purposeful sins the whole thing kinda falls apart

 

[SCvol333]

I think we've had enough experience with "ex-gays" who've attempted reparative therapy to know that sexual orientation is something that cannot be changed. An overwhelming consensus of psychologists and health organizations agree, and have cautioned that attempts to reverse or repress a person's natural sexual orientation often cause tremendous psychological harm.

The fact that gay people are born gay is important for several reasons. First, it underscores that sexual orientation is an immutable characteristic (like race or gender) that a person cannot help and cannot control. This makes laws attacking gay rights (e.g., prohibiting same-sex marriage, allowing employers to fire employees for being gay, etc) unfair and discriminatory.

Second, it undermines the homophobic propaganda that gay people are trying to "recruit" other people to be gay too. Turning a straight person gay won't work any better than trying to turn a gay person straight, and nobody would know this better than gays and lesbians! For those straight people who may disagree, do you seriously think you could "choose" to be gay if you wanted to? Unless you're bisexual, the answer is no.

Finally, the innate nature of sexual orientation is important because it rejects the notion that homosexuality is a temporary phase or disorder that can be "fixed" with treatment. As I said earlier, almost all secular health organization recognize homosexuality as a natural occurance in a minority of any given population. There are animal species which exhibit homosexual behavior, and many geniuses have accomplished amazing things (e.g., Alexander the Great, Tchaikovsky, maybe Abraham Lincoln) while being gay.

People like Michael Sam having nothing to apologize for, and no reason to hide who they are.

well said - so basically anyone with a brain and no reason to be biased comes to the same conclusion - interesting

 

[utvolpj]

It actually seems highly correlated - just not in the way that fade suggested

the more religious a society is the more brutal and violent it tends to be

I am not sure if it is causal but the correlation seems very strong

I think it would be an easy argument to make that if we could see a 40-50% drop in global churchgoing rates we would likely also see a significant and proportional drop in global violent deaths

the violent crime rate is already dropping in the US

 

[Aerie Vol]

Biology and sexual orientation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Thirty seconds on google and Wikipedia can find you a plethora of scientific studies that suggest certain biological factors that can presuppose sexual orientation.


These were scientifically conducted studies that can't be debated (and this is just the garbage you can find on Wikipedia--contrasted to what you can find in actual scholarly journals or other publications).

None of this is opinion: it's data that comes from testing. Having a "differing opinion" is selective ignorance.

For your consideration: Many of the same scientists trumpeting this data (born gay) would also hold to Darwinian evolution or at least some vision of evolution including "survival of the fittest" adaptation. Nevermind the fact these two views are mutually exclusive.

Here's a scientific fact for you - you canNOT be born gay. Unless you wish to posit the theory stating the "homosexual gene" is dominant (dooming humanity) then you have a problem with explaining how homosexuals have managed to pass their genes along through the eons. For, as we know, homosexuals living "out of the closet" in a relationship of their choice cannot naturally produce offspring.

Please don't seriously suggest to me that homosexuals have managed to pass down their genes because they were forced into "uncomfortable" marriages by social convention. Again, the only way the gene could have survived thousands of years of marital suppression would be for it to be dominant.

If one argues "the gene" is a modern day mutation, how did it become so widespread so quickly? Also, please explain the Greeks from 2400 years ago. So...do you "born gay" proponents really want to travel down the genetic path? Or does it just make you feel better about your beliefs to think science is on your side?

AV
PS. Yes, it's possible to love gay people WITHOUT thinking they were born that way or that their behavior is any less sinful than my lusting at some of the avi's on this site.

 

[SCvol333]

the violent crime rate is already dropping in the US

yes and has been dropping at the same time that religious fervor is dropping

id say the best thing for this world would be some serious drops in religious fervor - terrorism could stop and violent crime be seriously reduced - sound pretty good huh?

 

[vol2002]

Interesting discussion. Here are my thoughts on this topic, for the record:

(1) I'm a Bible-believing Christian, and I believe homosexuality is a sin.

(2) I don't believe the acceptance of homosexuality in society is a new, or progressive idea. From my reading of the bible (particularly Romans 1), it sounds like some of the cultures into which Christianity was first introduced also accepted homosexuality. Thus, I don't, for example, view the recent momentum around this issue as some great turning point in human history that will lead us to some new level of human existence. Seems to me like a very old idea that has been tried (and in many cases has failed) in the past.

(3) I don't find arguments suggesting homosexuals are "born that way" to be a compelling basis for arguing homosexuality should be morally acceptable. I've seen similar arguments used to explain pedophelia, for example, and I think we'd generally agree that behavior is not morally acceptable.

(4) I don't find arguments that homosexuality should be embraced as morally acceptable because our society as a whole has come to approve it as being an adequate basis for either. Some societies today mistreat women or accept certain forms of slavery, for example, and I think we'd generally agree that is not morally acceptable (even though those societies accept it).

(5) I find it odd in a culture where we normally say you can choose to be anything you want to be, that many also want to dogmatically declare that you can't choose your sexual orientation and will vilify anyone who suggests otherwise.

In conclusion, my major concerns about this issue are these:

(1) I think the acceptance of homosexuality is one of many indications our culture is in a sustained, long-term decline. I fear how the outworkings of that decline will affect my children.

(2) I fear the acceptance of homosexuality will lead to perspecution of Christians and those of other faiths who continue to believe it is wrong.

(3) I fear the liberal dogma around this issue will lead to restrictions on people who struggle with homosexuality and want to leave the lifestyle being prevented from having open access to reparative therapy, etc.

I've personally known and worked with many people are homosexual. But I've also known some of who have given up on the lifestyle. In my experience, it is the ones in the latter category who are treated the worst.

 

[volpreacher]

It was a joke. I am a Christian. I have a strong belief in Christ

Sorry, I didn't read your other posts and realized that afterwards. I had gone to the end of the thread. Thank you for serving Christ.

 

[utvolpj]

Here's a scientific fact for you - you canNOT be born gay.

link?

 

[wU-Tang Vol]

there are simply more students graduating with worthless degrees from dumbed down colleges. No matter what they tell HS students, not everyone is college material.

IMO educated people are likely to make fewer mistakes than uneducated ones. Has nothing to do with religion

The thing about religion, is usually it's teachings are for positive moralistic views. Now, that's not to say you need religion to be a good person by any means. You could definitely argue that being a religious person, for most religions, helps in morality. It doesn't mean they will be a good person, just that if you are taught positive stances on murder, rape, etc., you are more likely to not do those things. Again, you don't have to be religious, just that if you are you are usually taught these things. Also, I agree an educated person is more likely to make a better decision. I feel the two go hand in hand. Jmo

 

[KnoxVillain]

It actually seems highly correlated - just not in the way that fade suggested

the more religious a society is the more brutal and violent it tends to be

I am not sure if it is causal but the correlation seems very strong

I think it would be an easy argument to make that if we could see a 40-50% drop in global churchgoing rates we would likely also see a significant and proportional drop in global violent deaths

Many countries in Europe are largely irreligious but that doesn't stop them from maintaining a higher standard of living with less social issues.

 

[SDV]

His ass would take a serious beating for sure.

Lol gross

 

[volpreacher]

again that's simply your opinion. You can't define sin for others, only yourself.



which is very convenient for the straight sinners huh? Without the ability to be forgiven for purposeful sins the whole thing kinda falls apart

It's not just my opinion but clearly defined in the Bible as a sin. I can't define sin, but the Bible does.

Not just straight sinners, but alcoholics, drug abusers, adulterers, murderers, etc. The world is full of sin, but unless you ask to be forgiven of your sin, gay or straight, you aren't going to make it to Heaven. Not my answer, but the Bible's answer.

 

[utvolpj]

yes and has been dropping at the same time that religious fervor is dropping

id say the best thing for this world would be some serious drops in religious fervor - terrorism could stop and violent crime be seriously reduced - sound pretty good huh?

I don't necessarily believe that. I think organized religion has been perverted by some to completely oppress their believers. Others wish to shape the world based on their beliefs. If they would simply stick to their main charge and keep their hands out of the personal lives of others (including via politics) there wouldn't be that much of an issue

frankly I have enough to worry about with myself and my boys to even care enough to jump into the personal lives of others. Just let everyone do their own thing as long as it does not infringe on the rights of another

 

[volpreacher]

link?

The HOLY BIBLE.com

 

[Manvol]

Finally a face for the $2 bill.

 

[utvolpj]

It's not just my opinion but clearly defined in the Bible as a sin. I can't define sin, but the Bible does.

Not just straight sinners, but alcoholics, drug abusers, adulterers, murderers, etc. The world is full of sin, but unless you ask to be forgiven of your sin, gay or straight, you aren't going to make it to Heaven. Not my answer, but the Bible's answer.

it's great you believe in the bible but not everyone does. You cannot judge others based on a belief they don't subscribe to

like I said earlier, forgiveness has to exist for a religion to work

The HOLY BIBLE.com

he specifically said "scientific fact" and that really doesn't count as a scientific text

 

[Aerie Vol]

link?

LOL!

Free-think dude. The link is my post. Please explain to me how a homosexual gene exists. Where did it come from and how has it survived thousands of years (tens of thousands if you don't believe the Bible) in a heterosexual world if it is not dominant?

Mind you, if it's dominant, humanity is not only doomed, but it would have long since ended. Those of you espousing the "born gay" theory do understand how genetics works, right?

 

[utvolpj]

LOL!

Free-think dude. The link is my post. Please explain to me how a homosexual gene exists. Where did it come from and how has it survived thousands of years (tens of thousands if you don't believe the Bible) in a heterosexual world if it is not dominant?

Mind you, if it's dominant, humanity is not only doomed, but it would have long since ended. Those of you espousing the "born gay" theory do understand how genetics works, right?

sorry but your post is not very scientific. A citation from someone who understands genetics might be a good idea or I may have some bad news for my blue-eyed sons

 

[thebjd]

Mark Swartz of Espn said a bar erupted in cheers when it was shown on tv. Bull ****. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. lol.

Goes to show the media will be ridiculous with this. It's sad.

Mark probably attends a different type of bar than you do.