There's not a penalty to harsh for PSU!

#301
#301
milohimself said:
The NCAA can launch an inquiry about whomever or whatever they want. They are right to do so. What the NCAA cannot do is issue subpoenas or issue punishment because they feel like it or just suspect something.
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I know that. That's precisely what's interesting about this. The subpoenas and sworn testimony are a luxury they usually don't have.
 
#302
#302
milohimself said:
About what?

How is somebody supposed to do something about things they are not aware that are going on? Can you explain this to me?

And the people responsible for making sure the board didn't know about Sandusky are... You guessed it, dead or going to die behind bars.
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Typically when you accept a board seat you sign a fiduciary responsibility consent form. Which means you accept responsibility for what happens. The fact that the BOT allowed an atmosphere in which people felt fine in hiding things is on them. I serve on 3 boards and I understand that and I signed off knowing so. Trust me the BOT failed their job and should be replaced.
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#304
#304
vol66 said:
I know that. That's precisely what's interesting about this. The subpoenas and sworn testimony are a luxury they usually don't have.
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The only new information will come out if it is relevant to the prosecution of Spanier et. al. If some NCAA violation or another is revealed as part of the prosecutions investigation and made public, then the NCAA can act on it. That's about it though, at this point.

Or, obviously, if the NCAA finds cheating related to football with their inquiry.
 
#305
#305
VolBeef88 said:
Typically when you accept a board seat you sign a fiduciary responsibility consent form. Which means you accept responsibility for what happens. The fact that the BOT allowed an atmosphere in which people felt fine in hiding things is on them. I serve on 3 boards and I understand that and I signed off knowing so. Trust me the BOT failed their job and should be replaced.
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If there is a contractual agreement that the board members signed that says they are responsible for what goes on whether or not they know about it, then they can, should and probably will be fired.

But if that language isn't part of any agreement they signed, then firing them just to "send a message" would make no sense.
 
#306
#306
GhostVol said:
So you're all for doing what Jo Pa did..... Kick it upstairs and let the big bugs handle it. Don't take a stand on what is obviously wrong. Not my prob.... I did what I was required to do.
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He's not; your analogy here doesn't work the way you want it to (or feel that it should)

There is no kicking it up levels here; these - the NCAA and the criminal justice system - are completely, separate, unique entities...with no real connections.

In the NCAA's case, it's that what theyre designed to do is limited by a specific scope. They're in charge of regulation of the athletic portion of the universities to monitor and promote fair play while restricting unfair competitive advantages, mainly to keep the more massively endowment heavy schools in check so as to not disparage against the lesser endowed private ones, and to promote fair play. They're in charge of cheating and due punishment with regards to people who have clearly done such; they are not a criminal institution doing the law's work but just at a lower level (they are by no means an arm or hand of the criminal system or the state/national law)

There is a completely separate entity (well series of entities; it's per state) whose responsibility alone it is to deal with criminal activities and the punishment in response to such (one that in fact already has Sandusky in jail; and soon will have those other 3 schmucks in jail as well). They are by no means connected. It is the criminal court's job/responsibility to handle criminal cases, not the NCAAs. They're two separate entities each dealing with separate matters.
 
#307
#307
milohimself said:
If there is a contractual agreement that the board members signed that says they are responsible for what goes on whether or not they know about it, then they can, should and probably will be fired.

But if that language isn't part of any agreement they signed, then firing them just to "send a message" would make no sense.
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I can't even fathom PSU BOT members not signing a fiduciary consent. This is ugly and will get worse.
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#308
#308
GhostVol said:
Are you for real?? You can't stress this enough?? You'd rather let PSU skate on kiddie rape than blame PSU and their crowd for creating this mess in the first place?

I don't care who gets roasted. The blame lies with Sandusky (who was allowed to rape kids), Paterno (who helped cover it up), the higher-ups at PSU that allowed it to happen and whoever else knew about it that didn't notify the proper authorities.

Seriously, man, you're laying the blame in the wrong place.
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the individual punishments and jail times that those involved/responsible will get (as well as massive losses of money) are much worse than the NCAA could actually ever dole out to those who were responsible and had active parts in this whole thing
 
#309
#309
milohimself said:
The only new information will come out if it is relevant to the prosecution of Spanier et. al. If some NCAA violation or another is revealed as part of the prosecutions investigation and made public, then the NCAA can act on it. That's about it though, at this point.

Or, obviously, if the NCAA finds cheating related to football with their inquiry.
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You might be right with regards to Spanier, Shultz and Curley. Still...I have a sinking feeling that there are many who have a story to tell. I have a feeling that for all the folks who liked Paterno, there were as many who despised him.

I've been there. It's a very small town. People know other people's buisness. To think that this was going on for over a decade either speaks to Sandusky's brilliance or to the rest of the population turning a blind eye.
 
#310
#310
milohimself said:
For gods sake, put down the righteous indignation for one moment.

The fact that if somebody thinks anything less than "nuke the whole program" gets labeled as insensitive to the kids is infuriating.

Nobody here is any less sick to their stomach over what happened than anybody else. It's deeply insulting to be thought of otherwise.

But again... This is a criminal issue.

The NCAA's job is to ensure amateurism, competitive fairness and academics among student athletes. It ends there.

Pearl got busted for impermissible contact. Being able to get in extra time recruiting is very clearly, cut and dry, a competitive advantage, and in that specific area in which the NCAA is concerned, is on a completely different level than covering up for a child rapist to protect the reputation of a program.

The NCAA plays no part in criminal justice, nor should it. The NCAA and the criminal justice system don't overlap, and that is for a very good reason.

I am aware that your argument is that people used the image of the football program as the justification for covering up for Sandusky, but that's still no reason to burn it to the ground. When somebody is drunk, gets into a car and kills somebody, we don't outlaw cars because of that.

I will put this in every post if I have to: The NCAA shutting down the Penn State program ONLY does harm to people who have no responsibility for the crimes committed, and WILL HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO EFFECT ON THE ACTUAL CRIMINALS.
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Very good post.

pearl's bust was the impermissible contact but also heavily because he proceeded to lie to the investigators, no?
 
#311
#311
VolBeef88 said:
I can't even fathom PSU BOT members not signing a fiduciary consent. This is ugly and will get worse.
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From a practical standpoint, there was nothing the board members could have done if they were kept in the dark about it, regardless of what their contract said.

But if that is in their contract, they will be fired, as the contract says they should. But the only statement that will make is that they could and did get canned for something that was outside of their knowledge and thus outside of their control.
 
#312
#312
vol66 said:
You might be right with regards to Spanier, Shultz and Curley. Still...I have a sinking feeling that there are many who have a story to tell. I have a feeling that for all the folks who liked Paterno, there were as many who despised him.

I've been there. It's a very small town. People know other people's buisness. To think that this was going on for over a decade either speaks to Sandusky's brilliance or to the rest of the population turning a blind eye.
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Apparently child abusers tend to become excellent at hiding what they do, but given that failure to report child abuse is a crime, if it comes out that more people didn't report then they too will be prosecuted and wind up behind bars for a very, very long time.
 
#313
#313
TrueOrange said:
Very good post.

pearl's bust was the impermissible contact but also heavily because he proceeded to lie to the investigators, no?
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Yes. Pearl lied about impermissable contact to the NCAA. Paterno lied to a grand jury about the impermissable contact Sandusky had with minors. No?
 
#314
#314
TrueOrange said:
Very good post.

pearl's bust was the impermissible contact but also heavily because he proceeded to lie to the investigators, no?
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The point was more that what Pearl did was very clearly in the NCAA's purview, while this case is not (possibly not yet).
 
#315
#315
vol66 said:
Yes. Pearl lied about impermissable contact to the NCAA. Paterno lied to a grand jury about the impermissable contact Sandusky had with minors. No?
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The NCAA is empowered to do something about one of those things and not the other.
 
#316
#316
milohimself said:
From a practical standpoint, there was nothing the board members could have done if they were kept in the dark about it, regardless of what their contract said.

But if that is in their contract, they will be fired, as the contract says they should. But the only statement that will make is that they could and did get canned for something that was outside of their knowledge and thus outside of their control.
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I highly doubt the PSU BOT members get paid. But the legal world holds all Board members at the same level.
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#318
#318
vol66 said:
Yes. Pearl lied about impermissable contact to the NCAA. Paterno lied to a grand jury about the impermissable contact Sandusky had with minors. No?
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The only thing that comparison really gives is that if pearl was punished even more harshly by the NCAA because he lied to him, then Sandusky should also be punished even more harshly by the state courts because he lied to them under oath


Pretty much - both lied to the authorities, therefore both should have that added on/into their punishments
 
#319
#319
milohimself said:
The point was more that what Pearl did was very clearly in the NCAA's purview, while this case is not (possibly not yet).
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No I know. I was just asking/clarifying wasn't pearl's punishment a combination of both his actions, not just one.

Sorry seems that would be derailing a bit
 
#320
#320
TrueOrange said:
The only thing that comparison really gives is that if pearl was punished even more harshly by the NCAA because he lied to him, then Sandusky should also be punished even more harshly by the state courts because he lied to them under oath


Pretty much - both lied to the authorities, therefore both should have that added on/into their punishments
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I don't know TO...one broke a rule, and conspired with his assistants to cover it up.

The other broke a law and conspired with those at the top of a University and those janitors at the bottom who felt they couldn't come forward to right the wrongs.

What does lack of institutional control mean when the entire institution from the president to the janitors turn a blind eye?
 
#321
#321
vol66 said:
I don't know TO...one broke a rule, and conspired with his assistants to cover it up.

The other broke a law and conspired with those at the top of a University and those janitors at the bottom who felt they couldn't come forward to right the wrongs.

What does lack of institutional control mean when the entire institution from the president to the janitors turn a blind eye?
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LOIC refers only to the institution's handling of NCAA violations. Since child rape isn't an NCAA violation, the school's response cannot be considered LOIC.
 
#324
#324
milohimself said:
From a practical standpoint, there was nothing the board members could have done if they were kept in the dark about it, regardless of what their contract said.

But if that is in their contract, they will be fired, as the contract says they should. But the only statement that will make is that they could and did get canned for something that was outside of their knowledge and thus outside of their control.
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The reason the entire board should be replaced is they allowed an atmosphere where University leaders of whom answer to and are responsible to the BOT held the belief that hiding things from the board was acceptable. One of the hardest things to do as a board member is keeping business and friendship separate. If a board becomes to friendly with it's subordinates bad things happen. Meetings become scripted and that nullifies the very purpose of the BOT. I saw a quote from one of the board members where they even said the BOT meetings were scripted or something very similar.
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#325
#325
bamawriter said:
What violation would that be? Covering up child rape is also not an NCAA violation.
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To keep the football team and program from suffering any repercussions. Look, whatever happens, happens and it really doesn't matter to me. But isn't this possible? We are talking about the NCAA, basically a rogue group thats makes things up as they go. USC should NOT have gotten what they did, no matter the hatred for them.
 
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