There's not a penalty to harsh for PSU!

[milohimself]

So you're all for doing what Jo Pa did..... Kick it upstairs and let the big bugs handle it. Don't take a stand on what is obviously wrong. Not my prob.... I did what I was required to do.

That is not at all what I'm saying. Not even within miles of being close.

 

[95 Vol Alum]

So you're all for doing what Jo Pa did..... Kick it upstairs and let the big bugs handle it. Don't take a stand on what is obviously wrong. Not my prob.... I did what I was required to do.

Clearly that was what Milo was suggesting.

 

[GhostVol]

How?! How many times have I said that everybody responsible here is already dead or likely to wind up behind bars for the rest of their lives?

I want to see JUSTICE here. JUSTICE is currently being brought about, burning down Penn State football is VENGEANCE and screws over thousands of people who have zero to do with what Sandusky did or got covered up for, while Sandusky and everybody who covered for him are either dead or are well on their way to being behind bars forever.

So that's enough for you?

The fact that lives were ruined is cool with you? PSU football should keep on keeping on? Justice would involve PSU football being 86'd for a couple of years

And don't hand me this "We can't punish those who weren't there"..... You can make the same argument for any person who has ever broken the law.

Someone has to step in and shut it down. If not the NCAA then who? If it's someone else, fine!! I don't care as long as they are shut down.

 

[vol66]

For gods sake, put down the righteous indignation for one moment.

The fact that if somebody thinks anything less than "nuke the whole program" gets labeled as insensitive to the kids is infuriating.

Nobody here is any less sick to their stomach over what happened than anybody else. It's deeply insulting to be thought of otherwise.

But again... This is a criminal issue.

The NCAA's job is to ensure amateurism, competitive fairness and academics among student athletes. It ends there.

Pearl got busted for impermissible contact. Being able to get in extra time recruiting is very clearly, cut and dry, a competitive advantage, and in that specific area in which the NCAA is concerned, is on a completely different level than covering up for a child rapist to protect the reputation of a program.

The NCAA plays no part in criminal justice, nor should it. The NCAA and the criminal justice system don't overlap, and that is for a very good reason.

I am aware that your argument is that people used the image of the football program as the justification for covering up for Sandusky, but that's still no reason to burn it to the ground. When somebody is drunk, gets into a car and kills somebody, we don't outlaw cars because of that.

I will put this in every post if I have to: The NCAA shutting down the Penn State program ONLY does harm to people who have no responsibility for the crimes committed, and WILL HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO EFFECT ON THE ACTUAL CRIMINALS.

I have done some thinking on your last sentence, more on that in a moment.

This is not righteous indignation, this, at least to me is calling it what it is. Joe Paterno and the football program were bigger than the administrators, the BOT and the President.

In 2007 a lady quit her job because Paterno told the players not to cooperate with her investigation. The players ended up being diciplined by Paterno rather than the school, as all "normal" students would have been.

While I agree that there are, especially on the surface, criminal elements to this. Simply because they are criminal doesn't mean there is not LOIC, infact, has there ever been a more blatant case?

As for your last sentence...I agree penalizing the current players and the new coach, as has been the NCAA's tradition, may not seem fair.

PSU should never let it get that far. 13 years. For the next 13 years the football team should put the profits from TV and bowls into the victim's fund. If new victims come forward add a year.

Penn State gets to have football and hold themselves accountable at the same time.

 

[milohimself]

So that's enough for you?

The fact that lives were ruined is cool with you? PSU football should keep on keeping on? Justice would involve PSU football being 86'd for a couple of years

And don't hand me this "We can't punish those who weren't there"..... You can make the same argument for any person who has ever broken the law.

Someone has to step in and shut it down. If not the NCAA then who? If it's someone else, fine!! I don't care as long as they are shut down.

Re: bolded, I don't understand what you're saying.

Somebody commits a crime, they get punished.

Sandusky raped children, he will be die behind bars.

Everybody who covered for him died or will meet the same fate.

What more is to be done? Everybody who is responsible for ruining those kids lives is going to lose their freedom forever.

I have done some thinking on your last sentence, more on that in a moment.

This is not righteous indignation, this, at least to me is calling it what it is. Joe Paterno and the football program were bigger than the administrators, the BOT and the President.

In 2007 a lady quit her job because Paterno told the players not to cooperate with her investigation. The players ended up being diciplined by Paterno rather than the school, as all "normal" students would have been.

While I agree that there are, especially on the surface, criminal elements to this. Simply because they are criminal doesn't mean there is not LOIC, infact, has there ever been a more blatant case?

As for your last sentence...I agree penalizing the current players and the new coach, as has been the NCAA's tradition, may not seem fair.

PSU should never let it get that far. 13 years. For the next 13 years the football team should put the profits from TV and bowls into the victim's fund. If new victims come forward add a year.

Penn State gets to have football and hold themselves accountable at the same time.

The reason I disagree with it is this:

A football program cannot molest and rape children, and a football program cannot make the decision to cover up for somebody who does.

A football program is not a person. It is a football program.

People commit crimes, and justice includes and ends at punishing those people who commit crimes.

People committed crimes and are being punished for it.

Shutting down the football program is extending the notion of justice to something that doesn't physically exist at the expense of many thousands of people who committed no wrongdoings.

In other words, it's total nonsense. When somebody commits a crime in the name of some thing or idea, you don't destroy that thing or idea, you punish the person who committed the crime.

I think the comparison to drunk driving deaths is perfectly apt here. When somebody drives drunk and kills somebody, cars don't get outlawed. Cars stay in place, because their value to society is apparent, and instead we try to create a situation in which the largest number of people possible treat the use of cars responsibly.

Penn State football facilitated the molestation of children. Penn State football has also lifted thousands out of poverty, provided growth and development for countless young men, and become the single largest cultural identity for just about everybody who lives in central PA.

It's completely irresponsible to destroy the latter because of the former. Just like we don't outlaw cars when a few people are killed because of drunk drivers, we don't wipe out the program and the good it has done for thousands of people. Instead, we need to take a step back and re-think the way we view institutions, universities, football coaches and the role they play in our lives and that of others, and recognize the potential downsides of the reverence in which football coaches and players are viewed.

 

[vol66]

Instead, we need to take a step back and re-think the way we view institutions, universities, football coaches and the role they play in our lives and that of others, and recognize the potential downsides of the reverence in which football coaches and players are viewed.

This would seem to fit squarely on the shoulders of the NCAA, no?

I don't think you read my post.

 

[VolBeef88]

At the end of the day, somebody should have been protecting these kids. And I'd rather our justice system be handing down punishment for failure to do so than the NCAA.

What's wrong with both doing the right thing? To me that's what needs to happen.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[milohimself]

This would seem to fit squarely on the shoulders of the NCAA, no?

I don't think you read my post.

I don't see how that fits in with the NCAA taking punitive action. IIRC the NCAA is already looking into taking up initiatives for oversight of programs, and making sure criminal activity is reported to the proper authorities.

That is a proactive, non-punitive solution that is completely within the bounds of the NCAA, and one I think we can all agree they should take.

Smacking down the Penn State football program, which is now 100% occupied by people who have no responsibility for Sandusky's actions or their coverup, is reactive and punitive, and frankly pointless and probably evil.

 

[milohimself]

What's wrong with both doing the right thing? To me that's what needs to happen.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

Because the people actually responsible for crime here will never be setting foot in an athletic department anywhere in the country ever again, thus making it impossible for the NCAA to do anything about the wrongdoers.

The NCAA should be doing everything in its power to make sure criminal activity happening in athletic departments gets handled by the proper authorities, but it isn't and should not be within their power to actually do anything about it when it is crimes that are happening, rather than cheating or amateur athletics code violations.

 

[VolBeef88]

I'm stunned at how many people want to defend PSU and give ZERO blame the university. I know a lot of people feel enlightened by taking the "high road". But PSU deserves punishment too.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[Spartacavolus]

It has nothing to do with defending the University or the high road. I don't know what's wrong with punishing all those guilty and not punishing the innocent. It has to do with defending people that work with or for PSU that had absolutely nothing to do with what happened. I'd feel the same about any school.

 

[milohimself]

I'm stunned at how many people want to defend PSU and give ZERO blame the university. I know a lot of people feel enlightened by taking the "high road". But PSU deserves punishment too.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

This makes no sense.

Universities do not commit crimes. Football programs do not commit crimes.

People who work for universities and people who work in football programs commit crimes.

 

[vol66]

I don't see how that fits in with the NCAA taking punitive action. IIRC the NCAA is already looking into taking up initiatives for oversight of programs, and making sure criminal activity is reported to the proper authorities.

That is a proactive, non-punitive solution that is completely within the bounds of the NCAA, and one I think we can all agree they should take.

Smacking down the Penn State football program, which is now 100% occupied by people who have no responsibility for Sandusky's actions or their coverup, is reactive and punitive, and frankly pointless and probably evil.

I think PSU should step up to the plate and I think they should sanction themselves. I think doing the right thing here means taking care of the victims. I think it's a committment of money, education and support. If PSU fails to do this, then I hope the weight of the NCAA and the justice system comes down with the full measures of it's combined authority.

I guess we'll agree to disagree on the merits of the NCAA having some jurisdiction here. I think more than a few people knew about this, it's just common sense. Janitors, moms, school kids, Sandusky's own son.

Not to mention, a pedophile doesn't wait til he's 50 to start acting out. I think this is just the beginning of a larger nightmare.

 

[VolinMichigan]

I don't see how that fits in with the NCAA taking punitive action. IIRC the NCAA is already looking into taking up initiatives for oversight of programs, and making sure criminal activity is reported to the proper authorities.

That is a proactive, non-punitive solution that is completely within the bounds of the NCAA, and one I think we can all agree they should take.

Smacking down the Penn State football program, which is now 100% occupied by people who have no responsibility for Sandusky's actions or their coverup, is reactive and punitive, and frankly pointless and probably evil.

This X 1000

 

[VolBeef88]

This makes no sense.

Universities do not commit crimes. Football programs do not commit crimes.

People who work for universities and people who work in football programs commit crimes.

If asked, I recommend you NEVER serve on a board. If you can't see the issue here then you really don't need to ever serve.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[milohimself]

I think PSU should step up to the plate and I think they should sanction themselves. I think doing the right thing here means taking care of the victims. I think it's a committment of money, education and support. If PSU fails to do this, then I hope the weight of the NCAA and the justice system comes down with the full measures of it's combined authority.

If the current administration Penn State decides this is the best course of action, then more power to them. Its their university, they can run it as they wish.

I agree they should set up a victims fund, and pay for every minute of counseling and help that the victims need for the rest of their lives.

But shutting down the football program will do very real harm to tens of thousands of people who have done nothing wrong and potentially destroy what is quite literally the cultural, social and economic center of central Pennsylvania.

What sense does it make to respond to people having their lives ruined by ruining the lives of thousands more by an action that is not punitive in any way to the criminals?

I guess we'll agree to disagree on the merits of the NCAA having some jurisdiction here. I think more than a few people knew about this, it's just common sense. Janitors, moms, school kids, Sandusky's own son.

No, it's not "agree to disagree." Unless some not yet known facts are uncovered, the NCAA is powerless to take any meaningful action against Penn State.

We disagree about the merits of whether they should do anything, but this fact is they cannot.

Not to mention, a pedophile doesn't wait til he's 50 to start acting out. I think this is just the beginning of a larger nightmare.

Hopefully this doesn't get any worse, but who knows.

 

[milohimself]

If asked, I recommend you NEVER serve on a board. If you can't see the issue here then you really don't need to ever serve.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

Was the board not kept completely in the dark about this matter?

I was under the impression that the knowledge of Sandusky's actions went up and stopped at Spanier or Paterno (whoever you view as top of the food chain).

I don't know how somebody is supposed to act on something about which they don't know.

 

[VolBeef88]

Was the board not kept completely in the dark about this matter?

I was under the impression that the knowledge of Sandusky's actions went up and stopped at Spanier or Paterno (whoever you view as top of the food chain).

I don't know how somebody is supposed to act on something about which they don't know.

The fact that the PSU board was in the dark speaks volumes.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[95 Vol Alum]

The fact that the PSU board was in the dark speaks volumes.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

You keep going back to the board. What do you believe will be done to the board members?

 

[vol66]

I was trying to be polite Milo. I disagree with you. The NCAA sent PSU a letter, and therefore, the NCAA feels that it AT LEAST has standing to inquire. In the letter the NCAA lists the bylaws to which they are concerned.

They either boxed themselves into a corner by puffing out there chest or they feel they have a reason to do so. Either way, we both know the NCAA is an unpredictable org. and it's run by the very folks it's s'pose to preside over.

 

[milohimself]

The fact that the PSU board was in the dark speaks volumes.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

About what?

How is somebody supposed to do something about things they are not aware that are going on? Can you explain this to me?

And the people responsible for making sure the board didn't know about Sandusky are... You guessed it, dead or going to die behind bars.

 

[vol66]

I do think it would be interesting to know what the crossover was between folks on the BOT at PSU and those on the Board of Directors at 2nd Mile over that 13 year period.

 

[VolBeef88]

You keep going back to the board. What do you believe will be done to the board members?

Nothing. But they should all be replaces to set a precedence.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[milohimself]

I was trying to be polite Milo. I disagree with you. The NCAA sent PSU a letter, and therefore, the NCAA feels that it AT LEAST has standing to inquire. In the letter the NCAA lists the bylaws to which they are concerned.

They either boxed themselves into a corner by puffing out there chest or they feel they have a reason to do so. Either way, we both know the NCAA is an unpredictable org. and it's run by the very folks it's s'pose to preside over.

The NCAA can launch an inquiry about whomever or whatever they want. They are right to do so. What the NCAA cannot do is issue subpoenas or issue punishment because they feel like it or just suspect something.

 

[milohimself]

I do think it would be interesting to know what the crossover was between folks on the BOT at PSU and those on the Board of Directors at 2nd Mile over that 13 year period.

If they did, then they didn't know about what Sandusky was up to, according to Freeh's report.

Nothing. But they should all be replaces to set a precedence.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

A precedent for what? I'll ask it again, how was the PSU BOT supposed to take action on something they had no idea was occurring?