There's not a penalty to harsh for PSU!

#251
#251
bamawriter said:
It's been cited when punishing other violations. It is not a violation in and of itself. They can cite 19.01.2 if they charge PSU with a violation of NCAA rules. If they don't charge PSU, 19.01.2 is inapplicable.
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I'm not sure about that, finding a violation in alll this mess shouldn't be too hard, however.
 
#253
#253
vol66 said:
I'm not sure about that, finding a violation in alll this mess shouldn't be too hard, however.
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What would it be? Practically everybody I've seen speak on the issue so far with any sort of decent grasp of NCAA rules & regs has said there is nothing they can get at Penn State here for.

As far as I'm aware, this isn't like Goodell's NFL, Emmert just can't up and sanction whoever he chooses.

Penn State might have some wins vacated, but the NCAA likely won't take any meaningful punitive action against them, unless further investigation uncovers some actual cheating within the program.

The 'AA is limited in its scope, in that can only enforce amateurism and fair competition, not criminal or civil issues. And that is the way it should be.
 
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#254
#254
At the end of the day, somebody should have been protecting these kids. And I'd rather our justice system be handing down punishment for failure to do so than the NCAA.
 
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#255
#255
milohimself said:
What would it be? Practically everybody I've seen speak on the issue so far with any sort of decent grasp of NCAA rules & regs has said there is nothing they can get at Penn State here for.

As far as I'm aware, this isn't like Goodell's NFL, Emmert just can't up and sanction whoever he chooses.

Penn State might have some wins vacated, but the NCAA likely won't take any meaningful punitive action against them, unless further investigation uncovers some actual cheating within the program.

The 'AA is limited in its scope, in that can only enforce amateurism and fair competition, not criminal or civil issues. And that is the way it should be.
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I don't pretend to know THE violation, but based on experience if the NCAA snoops around, they'll find one. People are talking about Paterno and the kids, they aren't saying I wonder about impermissable calls, bbq's, bump rules on and on. This situation gives the NCAA a reason to look all over.

More over, because I don't really care how these men get what they got coming as long as they get it, and that the victims find some justice some how some way...the football coach was running the university, literally. PSU and these fellas might not have violated the letter of some NCAA rule, but they certainly violated the spirit of the whole f'n rule book.
 
#256
#256
VolBeef88 said:
. * * * * * **

If you don't think the President and VP of a University is considered top leadership then please let's quit discussing this. Because if that's your belief then yopure so off that you will never comprehend the make up of organizations. This post makes you look ignorant. Sorruy, but it does.
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In universities the president is subservient/below the board of trustees; he's correct on that... they might even able to choose/select him (actually I'm fairly certain they can/do)

It's why - if you'd like some sports examples - the presidents have to get the board's approval for conference changes, why the president has to have the board give him the authority/power to seek/negotiate with other conferences, and why - when the FSU board chairman went on about how he could guarantee necessary votes to move the school if he wanted - it made the FSU president look like a powerless puppet in the matter (he spent less than a day before going public that they were committed to the ACC)


If you're saying the VP and Pres are both high up there then yeah sure, but if you're claiming those two are the very top/higher than the school's board, that would be incorrect. (leaving it open in case I've misunderstood this statement)
 
#257
#257
milohimself said:
What would it be? Practically everybody I've seen speak on the issue so far with any sort of decent grasp of NCAA rules & regs has said there is nothing they can get at Penn State here for.

As far as I'm aware, this isn't like Goodell's NFL, Emmert just can't up and sanction whoever he chooses.

Penn State might have some wins vacated, but the NCAA likely won't take any meaningful punitive action against them, unless further investigation uncovers some actual cheating within the program.

The 'AA is limited in its scope, in that can only enforce amateurism and fair competition, not criminal or civil issues. And that is the way it should be.
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:yes:
 
#258
#258
vol66 said:
I don't pretend to know THE violation, but based on experience if the NCAA snoops around, they'll find one. People are talking about Paterno and the kids, they aren't saying I wonder about impermissable calls, bbq's, bump rules on and on. This situation gives the NCAA a reason to look all over.

More over, because I don't really care how these men get what they got coming as long as they get it, and that the victims find some justice some how some way...the football coach was running the university, literally. PSU and these fellas might not have violated the letter of some NCAA rule, but they certainly violated the spirit of the whole f'n rule book.
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(not yelling or in an angry tone)

And why wouldn't all these things happening (& that will be happening) in the courts - these 100 millions of dollars in civil suits, Sandusky in jail for life, these other 3 likely going to court (and maybe jail), the tarnished legacy, etc - how is that not justice for the victims?

Why would it be that the only way these victims would or could receive justice would have to be - of all things possible or that have already happened - the burning to a crisp of, of all things, a university football program?
 
#260
#260
Is the struggle here that there is no way to directly punish Paterno for his action/inaction so the next best thing is to tear down his program?

I'm struggling with the view that the Univerity leadership was complicit in the crime and the desired consequence involves only the football program. If the University as an entity must be punished based on the actions of its leaders, why not go after the whole AD or the University itself?

If those organizations that have the power to go after the University elect to do so (DOE, state, etc), I'd be fine with it. To me that would be bigger than focusing on just football.

I find it unlikely that they would do much more than threaten accreditation and/or mandate specific improvements to the oversight and ethics reporting processes, though. They could also require some of the actions noted by TX in another post.
 
#261
#261
vol66 said:
I don't pretend to know THE violation, but based on experience if the NCAA snoops around, they'll find one. People are talking about Paterno and the kids, they aren't saying I wonder about impermissable calls, bbq's, bump rules on and on. This situation gives the NCAA a reason to look all over.

More over, because I don't really care how these men get what they got coming as long as they get it, and that the victims find some justice some how some way...the football coach was running the university, literally. PSU and these fellas might not have violated the letter of some NCAA rule, but they certainly violated the spirit of the whole f'n rule book.
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That's what I'm saying, based on the facts we have now, there wasn't anything specifically against the NCAA rules that we know of. Yes, this is a cue for them to go in and snoop around, which they will, and if the circumstances change and they find any improprieties with the way the football program itself was run, then I'm sure Penn State will get hammered, but in that specific area there doesn't seem to be any wrongdoing.

As for the justice aspect, it's likely that Sandusky and everybody who covered for him is either dead or will spend the rest of their natural born lives behind bars. I'm not sure how much more justice you can ask for.
 
#262
#262
vollygirl said:
At the end of the day, somebody should have been protecting these kids. And I'd rather our justice system be handing down punishment for failure to do so than the NCAA.
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The question is what can the legal system do that shouldn't be done by the governing body of amateur athletics?

If the NCAA can't (or won't) do anything about what happened and their excuse is "This isn't within our purview. Let the legal system handle it." how is that any different from what Joe Paterno did?

Somebody has to take a stand. If the NCAA doesn't find a way to hammer PSU they have lost any credibility whatsoever.
 
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#263
#263
GhostVol said:
The question is what can the legal system do that shouldn't be done by the governing body of amateur athletics?

If the NCAA can't do anything about what happened and their excuse is "This isn't within our purview. Let the legal system handle it." how is that any different from what Joe Paterno did?

Somebody has to take a stand. If the NCAA doesn't find a way to hammer PSU they have lost any credibility whatsoever.
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What does this have to do with athletics? It's criminal activity. Who gives a damn about sports at this point?
 
#264
#264
vollygirl said:
What does this have to do with athletics? It's criminal activity. Who gives a damn about sports at this point?
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It has to do with the fact that the coverup of kiddie rape was done to protect a football program. If the NCAA can't touch that then they (the NCAA) are worthless and should be disbanded.
 
#265
#265
GhostVol said:
It has to do with the fact that the coverup of kiddie rape was done to protect a football program. If the NCAA can't touch that then they (the NCAA) are worthless and should be disbanded.
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http://www.volnation.com/forum/6923886-post131.html

Again, I can't stress this enough. Anything the NCAA does at this point will do a great deal of harm to thousands of people who had nothing to do with this whatsoever, and it will have precisely zero effect on the actual criminals.

Football programs are great things, this one was treated irresponsibly with tragic consequences but the response is not to burn it to the ground and destroy the lifeblood of central PA. All that does is create more victims.
 
#266
#266
Bruce Pearl covered up a bbq. He got a two year show cause. Tressle covered up the tatoo/jersey scheme, lost his job...Okay, so in those instances the NCAA has a say because there is a competitive advantage.

In this case, Pa and the others covered up the Head Asst. Coach's activities, which occurred on the campus in the football building. They covered it up so they didn't get bad publicity which might have a negative impact on everything from recruiting to donations.

Compared to SMU who got caught, were warned and then they did it again and it went all the way to the governor for paying players. Which is worse?

The NCAA might not have the clout to do anything, though I'd argue the head coach percieved being honest as some sort of competitive disadvantage, the NCAA death penalty is deserved here.
 
#267
#267
The argument that the NCAA (the governing body of amateur athletics in this country) has no purview in this situation is directly analogous to what Joe Paterno did. He kicked it upstairs.... I'm sorry guys and girls, but that's BS. If they can't shut down PSU football because of this, then everything goes. The NCAA is worthless.
 
#268
#268
vol66 said:
Bruce Pearl covered up a bbq. He got a two year show cause. Tressle covered up the tatoo/jersey scheme, lost his job...Okay, so in those instances the NCAA has a say because there is a competitive advantage.

In this case, Pa and the others covered up the Head Asst. Coach's activities, which occurred on the campus in the football building. They covered it up so they didn't get bad publicity which might have a negative impact on everything from recruiting to donations.

Compared to SMU who got caught, were warned and then they did it again and it went all the way to the governor for paying players. Which is worse?

The NCAA might not have the clout to do anything, though I'd argue the head coach percieved being honest as some sort of competitive disadvantage, the NCAA death penalty is deserved here.
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How do you then determine what is or isn't a competitive advantage?

Saving face and reputation are quantitative things. The whole thing is shades of gray.

Impermissible contact with recruits, cash payments to players, etc. are qualitative things. They either happened or they didn't.
 
#269
#269
GhostVol said:
The argument that the NCAA (the governing body of amateur athletics in this country) has no purview in this situation is directly analogous to what Joe Paterno did. He kicked it upstairs.... I'm sorry guys and girls, but that's BS. If they can't shut down PSU football because of this, then everything goes. The NCAA is worthless.
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This is a criminal matter.

And I don't know about you, but I would be completely uncomfortable with the NCAA having the authority to shut down a program because they feel like it.

Again, the NCAA's purpose is explicitly to enforce amateurism, competitive neutrality and academics to an extent. Everything outside of that, i.e. what's happening here is a criminal matter and is being handled by the criminal justice system.
 
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#270
#270
milohimself said:
How do you then determine what is or isn't a competitive advantage?

Saving face and reputation are quantitative things. The whole thing is shades of gray.

Impermissible contact with recruits, cash payments to players, etc. are qualitative things. They either happened or they didn't.
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I find that interesting. There is a photo of Craft at Bruce Pearl's house. Guilty.(and I think Pearl got what he deserved, especially since he'd done it before.)

Because Joe Paterno kept his mouth shut, and/or lied to the grand jury, a whole slew of kids met Sandusky that didn't have to, had he/they done the right thing in '98 or '01....ask the victims if it's qualitative.
 
#271
#271
milohimself said:
http://www.volnation.com/forum/6923886-post131.html

Again, I can't stress this enough. Anything the NCAA does at this point will do a great deal of harm to thousands of people who had nothing to do with this whatsoever, and it will have precisely zero effect on the actual criminals.

Football programs are great things, this one was treated irresponsibly with tragic consequences but the response is not to burn it to the ground and destroy the lifeblood of central PA. All that does is create more victims.
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Are you for real?? You can't stress this enough?? You'd rather let PSU skate on kiddie rape than blame PSU and their crowd for creating this mess in the first place?

I don't care who gets roasted. The blame lies with Sandusky (who was allowed to rape kids), Paterno (who helped cover it up), the higher-ups at PSU that allowed it to happen and whoever else knew about it that didn't notify the proper authorities.

Seriously, man, you're laying the blame in the wrong place.
 
#272
#272
milohimself said:
This is a criminal matter.

And I don't know about you, but I would be completely uncomfortable with the NCAA having the authority to shut down a program because they feel like it.

Again, the NCAA's purpose is explicitly to enforce amateurism, competitive neutrality and academics to an extent. Everything outside of that, i.e. what's happening here is a criminal matter and is being handled by the criminal justice system.
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So you're all for doing what Jo Pa did..... Kick it upstairs and let the big bugs handle it. Don't take a stand on what is obviously wrong. Not my prob.... I did what I was required to do.
 
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#273
#273
vol66 said:
I find that interesting. There is a photo of Craft at Bruce Pearl's house. Guilty.(and I think Pearl got what he deserved, especially since he'd done it before.)

Because Joe Paterno kept his mouth shut, and/or lied to the grand jury, a whole slew of kids met Sandusky that didn't have to, had he/they done the right thing in '98 or '01....ask the victims if it's qualitative.
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For gods sake, put down the righteous indignation for one moment.

The fact that if somebody thinks anything less than "nuke the whole program" gets labeled as insensitive to the kids is infuriating.

Nobody here is any less sick to their stomach over what happened than anybody else. It's deeply insulting to be thought of otherwise.

But again... This is a criminal issue.

The NCAA's job is to ensure amateurism, competitive fairness and academics among student athletes. It ends there.

Pearl got busted for impermissible contact. Being able to get in extra time recruiting is very clearly, cut and dry, a competitive advantage, and in that specific area in which the NCAA is concerned, is on a completely different level than covering up for a child rapist to protect the reputation of a program.

The NCAA plays no part in criminal justice, nor should it. The NCAA and the criminal justice system don't overlap, and that is for a very good reason.

I am aware that your argument is that people used the image of the football program as the justification for covering up for Sandusky, but that's still no reason to burn it to the ground. When somebody is drunk, gets into a car and kills somebody, we don't outlaw cars because of that.

I will put this in every post if I have to: The NCAA shutting down the Penn State program ONLY does harm to people who have no responsibility for the crimes committed, and WILL HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO EFFECT ON THE ACTUAL CRIMINALS.
 
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#275
#275
GhostVol said:
Are you for real?? You can't stress this enough?? You'd rather let PSU skate on kiddie rape than blame PSU and their crowd for creating this mess in the first place?

I don't care who gets roasted. The blame lies with Sandusky (who was allowed to rape kids), Paterno (who helped cover it up), the higher-ups at PSU that allowed it to happen and whoever else knew about it that didn't notify the proper authorities.

Seriously, man, you're laying the blame in the wrong place.
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How?! How many times have I said that everybody responsible here is already dead or likely to wind up behind bars for the rest of their lives?

I want to see JUSTICE here. JUSTICE is currently being brought about, burning down Penn State football is VENGEANCE and screws over thousands of people who have zero to do with what Sandusky did or got covered up for, while Sandusky and everybody who covered for him are either dead or are well on their way to being behind bars forever.
 
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