TrumPutinGate

#22,152
#22,152
volinbham said:
1. we are still waiting to find out what the Trump camp did if anything.
2. I've never said the Mueller investigation is a witch hunt and if you pay attention you'll see I've said I'm waiting to see the outcome to determine if I think Team Trump did something wrong.
3. I do think Team Hillary accepted help from a foreign hostile but did it legally (enough) that they aren't being charged. I have a problem with it; you don't. That doesn't change the facts that it happened.
4. We don't know the last thing you claim. The findings are not yet out. It may or may not be the case. We shall see.
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Serious question:

How are you still waiting for conclusive evidence on Trump, but have already made a decision on Hillary?

Not a Hillary fan, and wouldn’t put it past her to do the exact same thing. However, Trump has been put in a position where he has had to respond and his changing responses or at least the changing responses of his agents, have, IMO, provided circumstantial evidence from which it is fair for someone to draw a conclusion about where this is all headed.

Clinton has largely slinked away into the shadows and whether it’s because she’s not president or because she’s a liberal she hasn’t had to face tough questions or allegations about any of this.

So the only thing out there on Clinton, that I’m aware of, is the same substantive evidence that’s out there against Trump. Red hatters are *****ing on that evidence as being anonymously sourced and unreliable, which I would generally agree with, as far as it being conclusive proof. But, with respect to Clinton, there is none of the self-inflicted wounds that the Trump camp has experienced.
 
#22,154
#22,154
So collusion has been admitted officially by trump's own personal attorney. Just last night...

"“I never said there was no collusion between the campaign, or between people in the campaign,” Giuliani responded. “I said the president of the United States. There is not a single bit of evidence the president of the United States committed the only crime you could commit here: conspiring with the Russians to hack the DNC.”
 
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#22,156
#22,156
Velo Vol said:
No it reflects that I don't know:

(1) exactly who Steele's sources were, and how he got the information from them,

(2) what the terms/understanding was when the Clinton campaign obtained the memos

Perhaps this information is public, but I looked for a few minutes and didn't see it. It's all a side issue, really.
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Steele reveals in the dossier he's talking with Russian government officials

Since the DNC and Clintons can read I presume they saw that Steele says which of his information comes from Russian government officials.

There's no way around the fact that the DNC and Team Clinton paid for the information collection, received information that was sourced from Russian government officials and used that information.

I'm trying to parse out what is the line being set in this thread. Is anything okay so long as it's legal? Personally I say no for BOTH camps.
 
#22,159
#22,159
lawgator1 said:
You are in the 30 %. You are fine with him being a conman and a Russian stooge, an idiot and of no moral character whatsoever. So long as he's not a Democrat, the 30% could not care less what a criminal he actually is.
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When you can provide hard evidence of him being beholden to Russia and/or acting as a Russian "stooge" I'll care.
 
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#22,163
#22,163
RockyTop85 said:
Serious question:

How are you still waiting for conclusive evidence on Trump, but have already made a decision on Hillary?

Not a Hillary fan, and wouldn’t put it past her to do the exact same thing. However, Trump has been put in a position where he has had to respond and his changing responses or at least the changing responses of his agents, have, IMO, provided circumstantial evidence from which it is fair for someone to draw a conclusion about where this is all headed.

Clinton has largely slinked away into the shadows and whether it’s because she’s not president or because she’s a liberal she hasn’t had to face tough questions or allegations about any of this.

So the only thing out there on Clinton, that I’m aware of, is the same substantive evidence that’s out there against Trump. Red hatters are *****ing on that evidence as being anonymously sourced and unreliable, which I would generally agree with, as far as it being conclusive proof. But, with respect to Clinton, there is none of the self-inflicted wounds that the Trump camp has experienced.
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The dossier is public. Testimony from Steele and Fusion GPS along with records establish the link between the DNC/Clinton and the generation of the dossier. Both within the dossier and testimony the sourcing from Russian government officials is established. News records document cases where both Hillary Clinton and Harry Reid makes statements about Trump that are from the accusations in the dossier.

These are facts that are out there.

With Trump we have leaks. We are yet to have written documentation or public testimony making the linkages. There is smoke.

I'm not trying to bash Clinton with this - I'm trying to figure where the anti-Trumpers real outrage is. Is it getting help from a foreign hostile in general or only if it's done illegally? IOW, I'm not defending Trump or attacking Hillary: I'm trying to get people on here to dig down and examine what's really motivating them.
 
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#22,164
#22,164
hog88 said:
When you can provide hard evidence of him being beholden to Russia and/or acting as a Russian "stooge" I'll care.
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We'll see here in the not too distant future, it would seem.

But let's say there is none, or its ambivalent on the subject.

Are you really okay with his lying about seemingly EVERYTHING? From crowd size to business dealings and everything in between? Doesn't it bother you that he just cannot be counted on to tell the truth if he thinks it doesn't make him look awesome and incredible? That his ego and his psyche are so fragile that he bristles at the slightest criticism, lies about it, then relentlessly insults the people that do tell the truth?

He's not right in the head. I'm sorry. He's got some major personality disorder, at a minimum.
 
#22,166
#22,166
lawgator1 said:
We'll see here in the not too distant future, it would seem.

But let's say there is none, or its ambivalent on the subject.

Are you really okay with his lying about seemingly EVERYTHING? From crowd size to business dealings and everything in between? Doesn't it bother you that he just cannot be counted on to tell the truth if he thinks it doesn't make him look awesome and incredible? That his ego and his psyche are so fragile that he bristles at the slightest criticism, lies about it, then relentlessly insults the people that do tell the truth?

He's not right in the head. I'm sorry. He's got some major personality disorder, at a minimum.
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And he still beat the most qualified person to ever run for President, wow that's pretty damn impressive
 
#22,167
#22,167
lawgator1 said:
We'll see here in the not too distant future, it would seem.

But let's say there is none, or its ambivalent on the subject.

Are you really okay with his lying about seemingly EVERYTHING? From crowd size to business dealings and everything in between? Doesn't it bother you that he just cannot be counted on to tell the truth if he thinks it doesn't make him look awesome and incredible? That his ego and his psyche are so fragile that he bristles at the slightest criticism, lies about it, then relentlessly insults the people that do tell the truth?

He's not right in the head. I'm sorry. He's got some major personality disorder, at a minimum.
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No, I am not alright with the stupid lies but that is in no imaginable way reason enough to remove a duly elected president. You can't change the results of a free and fair election because you don't like teh results.
 
#22,168
#22,168
hog88 said:
When you can provide hard evidence of him being beholden to Russia and/or acting as a Russian "stooge" I'll care.
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I doubt it. You just recently inserted the word hard into your disclaimer because you now know there is evidence. As soon as the evidence becomes widely accepted at "hard" you will change your wording to irrefutable. As soon as the evidence becomes widely regarded to be irrefutable, you will tack on the phrase "and proven to have directly effected the outcome of the election."
 
#22,169
#22,169
hog88 said:
No, I am not alright with the stupid lies but that is in no imaginable way reason enough to remove a duly elected president. You can't change the results of a free and fair election because you don't like teh results.
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It's looking like the election wasn't free and fair which calls into question the whole "duly" elected part. We'll see.
 
#22,170
#22,170
luthervol said:
I doubt it. You just recently inserted the word hard into your disclaimer because you now know these is evidence. As soon as the evidence becomes widely accepted at "hard" you will change your wording to irrefutable. As soon as the evidence becomes widely regarded to be irrefutable, you will tack on the phrase "and proven to have directly effected the outcome of the election."
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There is zero evidence at this point. Conjecture is not evidence no matter how widespread it is believed.
 
#22,171
#22,171
hog88 said:
I have no answer for that, just point out actual instances of him being a Russian stooge.
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Fair enough.

My opinion is that when taking a step back from the trees and looking at the forest there is quite a bit to, at a minimum, suggest coordination to achieve objectives. Everything from the continually changing of stories from the trump camp to the indictments to trump's taking the side of Putin over his own FBI, intelligence agencies and senior defense officials.
 
#22,174
#22,174
General Jack said:
Fair enough.

My opinion is that when taking a step back from the trees and looking at the forest there is quite a bit to, at a minimum, suggest coordination to achieve objectives. Everything from the continually changing of stories from the trump camp to the indictments to trump's taking the side of Putin over his own FBI, intelligence agencies and senior defense officials.
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He enacted the sanctions, what else do you want him to do? Start a war?
 
#22,175
#22,175
luthervol said:
It's looking like the election wasn't free and fair which calls into question the whole "duly" elected part. We'll see.
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EILEEN SULLIVAN and ERIC TUCKER, Associated Press - WASHINGTON (AP) -- FBI Director James Comey and Mike Rogers, the director of the National Security Agency, say they have no evidence or intelligence that Russian cyber actors changed vote tallies in key states during last year's presidential election.
Testifying at a highly politically charged congressional hearing in the House, both said they had no evidence that any vote tallies were changed in Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Florida, North Carolina or Ohio.
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