TrumPutinGate

[volinbham]

Fair enough.

My opinion is that when taking a step back from the trees and looking at the forest there is quite a bit to, at a minimum, suggest coordination to achieve objectives. Everything from the continually changing of stories from the trump camp to the indictments to trump's taking the side of Putin over his own FBI, intelligence agencies and senior defense officials.

you also have to factor in the policy decisions he's made that are negative to Russia.

of the whole grand conspiracy the thing I see as most plausible is some sharing of information during the campaign, the absolute least by a long shot is that Trump is a Russian stooge/plant.

 

[Velo Vol]

There's no way around the fact that the DNC and Team Clinton paid for the information collection, received information that was sourced from Russian government officials and used that information.

Used it how?

Once they read the memo, what would be the proper response?

 

[lawgator1]

There is a difference between physically tinkering with ballots after they have been cast and targeting misinformation to particular voters in particular geographic regions to get them to either not vote or cast their ballot in a certain way based on misleading and false information.

In the case of the former, we can detect it (or we hope we can, anyway). And it is tangible and you can say whether there was tinkering.

In the case of the latter, it is not possible to know whether such efforts were successful because you'd have to go back, find the fake posting or influence, and then find voters influenced by that.

The latter is what we are talking about here. But you know that. You've always known that. And so you rely on the fact that by definition it cannot be proven one way or the other to justify ignoring the fact that it even happened. That is willful ignorance on your part of an organized effort by a hostile foreign power to manipulate our voters, and to do so to try to get a certain person into power.

Why you think pointing out that by definition the effectiveness of the Russian effort cannot be quantified, as though that makes it ok, is just mind boggling to sane people in this country. They tried to do it. And they did it for a reason.

 

[volinbham]

Used it how?

Once they read the memo, what would be the proper response?

it was used in campaign events - both Clinton and Reid made allegations publicly about Trump that were allegations from the dossier.

I would think the proper response is to not use or continue to pay for opposition research you know was coming from Russian government officials. The dossier is a series of memos that came in over time. It's not like they just got it all at once and suddenly learned the origins.

Let's flip it around. If Russian government officials gave compromising information about Clinton to some 3rd party who then passed it on to Team Trump who used it during the election is that fine? Would you have any problem with that?

 

[volinbham]

There is a difference between physically tinkering with ballots after they have been cast and targeting misinformation to particular voters in particular geographic regions to get them to either not vote or cast their ballot in a certain way based on misleading and false information.

In the case of the former, we can detect it (or we hope we can, anyway). And it is tangible and you can say whether there was tinkering.

In the case of the latter, it is not possible to know whether such efforts were successful because you'd have to go back, find the fake posting or influence, and then find voters influenced by that.

The latter is what we are talking about here. But you know that. You've always known that. And so you rely on the fact that by definition it cannot be proven one way or the other to justify ignoring the fact that it even happened. That is willful ignorance on your part of an organized effort by a hostile foreign power to manipulate our voters, and to do so to try to get a certain person into power.

Why you think pointing out that by definition the effectiveness of the Russian effort cannot be quantified, as though that makes it ok, is just mind boggling to sane people in this country. They tried to do it. And they did it for a reason.

No evidence has been presented that the misinformation changed any votes.

I don't like the misinformation but this is not the first election where it was used so are we to question the outcomes of all elections where some foreign power put misinformation into the system?

So the bigger question is why are you and others just upset about it this time?

 

[hog88]

There is a difference between physically tinkering with ballots after they have been cast and targeting misinformation to particular voters in particular geographic regions to get them to either not vote or cast their ballot in a certain way based on misleading and false information.

In the case of the former, we can detect it (or we hope we can, anyway). And it is tangible and you can say whether there was tinkering.

In the case of the latter, it is not possible to know whether such efforts were successful because you'd have to go back, find the fake posting or influence, and then find voters influenced by that.

The latter is what we are talking about here. But you know that. You've always known that. And so you rely on the fact that by definition it cannot be proven one way or the other to justify ignoring the fact that it even happened. That is willful ignorance on your part of an organized effort by a hostile foreign power to manipulate our voters, and to do so to try to get a certain person into power.

Why you think pointing out that by definition the effectiveness of the Russian effort cannot be quantified, as though that makes it ok, is just mind boggling to sane people in this country. They tried to do it. And they did it for a reason.

The Russian efforts were wildly successful, probably more successful than they ever dreamed they would be.

I don't think they were actively trying to get Trump elected, think they wanted division within the country to cripple whoever was elected. They have succeeded.

 

[volinbham]

The Russian efforts were wildly successful, probably more successful than they ever dreamed they would be.

I don't think they were actively trying to get Trump elected, think they wanted division within the country to cripple whoever was elected. They have succeeded.

Even if they wanted Trump they wanted him weak. Mission accomplished.

 

[Stew Cook]

Some of y’all still defending this embarrassment of a president?

Keep on Trumpin!

 

[hog88]

Some of y’all still defending this embarrassment of a president?

Keep on Trumpin!

Obama was embarrassing, the only difference is there wasn't a coordinated effort to remove him from office because of it.

 

[lawgator1]

No evidence has been presented that the misinformation changed any votes.

It is impossible to ever know that, by definition. That does not make it ok, nor should we ignore it because we cannot quantify it.

I don't like the misinformation but this is not the first election where it was used so are we to question the outcomes of all elections where some foreign power put misinformation into the system?

So the bigger question is why are you and others just upset about it this time?

1) Because of the effort and expense.

2) They did it to help a guy they had their hooks into.

This wasn't an experiment. It was sabotage of our system. And they had a goal. They got what they wanted. Now, whether they had help or not, we don't know yet.

But damnit, pay attention to the point that they had a goal. Keep your eye on that ball because they did not go to that effort for no reason.

 

[volinbham]

It is impossible to ever know that, by definition. That does not make it ok, nor should we ignore it because we cannot quantify it.




1) Because of the effort and expense.

2) They did it to help a guy they had their hooks into.

This wasn't an experiment. It was sabotage of our system. And they had a goal. They got what they wanted. Now, whether they had help or not, we don't know yet.

But damnit, pay attention to the point that they had a goal. Keep your eye on that ball because they did not go to that effort for no reason.

They always have a goal and I explicitly said it was wrong.

Wittingly or unwittingly the reaction of the "Resistance" is part of the sabotage - so maybe pay attention to that as well and see the big picture. Had Hillary won they had a plan to sabotage her as well.

 

[Stew Cook]

Obama was embarrassing, the only difference is there wasn't a coordinated effort to remove him from office because of it.

Only difference, huh?

Maybe at least you guys are still not calling to disband the FBI and whatnot?

 

[hog88]

It is impossible to ever know that, by definition. That does not make it ok, nor should we ignore it because we cannot quantify it.




1) Because of the effort and expense.

2) They did it to help a guy they had their hooks into.

This wasn't an experiment. It was sabotage of our system. And they had a goal. They got what they wanted. Now, whether they had help or not, we don't know yet.

But damnit, pay attention to the point that they had a goal. Keep your eye on that ball because they did not go to that effort for no reason.

Apparently from what I have read there was little effort and expense put into any of their attempts.

There has been ZERO evidence the Russians have their hooks into Trump. Saying it over and over doesn't make it true.

They got what they wanted, a weakened president.

Congratulations, you are teh Russian stooge.

 

[hog88]

Only difference, huh?

Maybe at least you guys are still not calling to disband the FBI and whatnot?

HUH?

 

[Stew Cook]

HUH?

Good, that's just my general memory from when I was lst on here. Maybe that was just the fringe folk.

 

[theFallGuy]

No evidence has been presented that the misinformation changed any votes.

I don't like the misinformation but this is not the first election where it was used so are we to question the outcomes of all elections where some foreign power put misinformation into the system?

So the bigger question is why are you and others just upset about it this time?

well we all know the answer to that

 

[Stew Cook]

well we all know the answer to that

I'm personally upset about having a lying douchbag of a president that parrots Kremlin propoganda. I think this is a security threat beyond anything we've seen.

That's just me, but I'm sure others have their own reasons.

 

[hog88]

I'm personally upset about having a lying douchbag of a president that parrots Kremlin propoganda. I think this is a security threat beyond anything we've seen.

That's just me, but I'm sure others have their own reasons.

Examples please.

 

[carlos86]

Explains why they hired Hugh Freeze.

They hired Hugh Freeze and Jerry Farwell paid his pool boy $1.5 million to satisfy his wife.

 

[luthervol]

There is zero evidence at this point. Conjecture is not evidence no matter how widespread it is believed.

Sure there is. Just today there was evidence released that Trump directly called for the falsifying of polls.

 

[hog88]

Sure there is. Just today there was evidence released that Trump directly called for the falsifying of polls.

A statement is not evidence in of itself. Need a corroborating witness or some physical evidence.

 

[Stew Cook]

Montenegro is a threat to the world, and could possibly start WWII, (this coming after a failed Russian coup to take over the government). Soon there after Trump shoves the president of Montenegro at a summit.

Russia was right to invade Afghanistan because they were being terrorized by the Afghans.

 

[luthervol]

LOL

I hope your realize that your "lol" replies are taken as your admission that it was a great point to which you have no answer.



Cue the next lol.

 

[General Jack]

He enacted the sanctions, what else do you want him to do? Start a war?

So you don't mind him publicly, in front of the whole world, taking the side of an authoritarian who uses assassination and prison to silence his critics, over his own FBI, intelligence agencies and senior defense officials.

There are a thousand better positions or statements that he could have offered.

Its not a binary solution, fawn over Putin or start a war. Trump is a simple-minded infantile narcissist and bully but even he, speaking at his seventh grade level, could have found better words than he did and achieved a better result than he did.

 

[hog88]

Montenegro is a threat to the world, and could possibly start WWII, (this coming after a failed Russian coup to take over the government). Soon there after Trump shoves the president of Montenegro at a summit.

Russia was right to invade Afghanistan because they were being terrorized by the Afghans.

LOL