'22 TX WR Evan Stewart (Oregon)

Catching a football is literally 99% of his job. He wasn't exactly dropping contested catches here. We're talking passes right in bread basket, and not launched 100 mph. Sure practice reps can contribute to that some, but catching wide open passes is not something should have to be practiced when you are a division 1 WR.

Criticism of his poor play (particularly the drops) is completed merited.
The world is made up of two complementary functions, big thinking and heavy lifting. You’ve repeatedly proven yourself to be a heavy thinker. Practice reps are everything for a D1 receiver. You don’t get a ball catcher badge and then everything is automatic from then on. It just doesn’t work like that. I understand you have the stamina to argue a bad point for days, as we’ve all seen before. Consider this post my goodbye hug, and you can venture back to into the blissful state of not knowing without me.
 
Catching a football is literally 99% of his job. He wasn't exactly dropping contested catches here. We're talking passes right in bread basket, and not launched 100 mph. Sure practice reps can contribute to that some, but catching wide open passes is not something should have to be practiced when you are a starting caliber WR in the SEC.

Criticism of his poor play (particularly the drops) is completed merited.

Yeah everybody knows once you reach a certain level in sports that you can just stop practicing and your skills are just always there
 
Yeah everybody knows once you reach a certain level in sports that you can just stop practicing and your skills are just always there
The world is made up of two complementary functions, big thinking and heavy lifting. You’ve repeatedly proven yourself to be a heavy thinker. Practice reps are everything for a D1 receiver. You don’t get a ball catcher badge and then everything is automatic from then on. It just doesn’t work like that. I understand you have the stamina to argue a bad point for days, as we’ve all seen before. Consider this post my goodbye hug, and you can venture back to into the blissful state of not knowing without me.

You're argument would hold water if we hadn't seen plenty of WRs miss the same amount of time or more and come back without these issues. There are zero excuses for drops to be a consistent issue, particularly on passes where he is wide open.

No one is above criticism. I criticized Keyton for the same issues at times this season.
 
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You're argument would hold water if we hadn't seen plenty of WRs miss the same amount of time or more and come back without these issues. There are zero excuses for drops to be a consistent issue, particularly on passes where he is wide open.

No one is above criticism. I criticized Keyton for the same issues at times this season.

Thornton missed four practice weeks during the season. Name the “plenty WRs” who missed that much practice. Then divide that group into those who caught lots of balls after. I’ll give you a hint— the fraction looks like this 0/0.
 
Thornton missed four practice weeks during the season. Name the “plenty WRs” who missed that much practice. Then divide that group into those who caught lots of balls after. I’ll give you a hint— the fraction looks like this 0/0.
Tilman literally missed half the season last year. Zero issues with drops when he returned.
 
You're argument would hold water if we hadn't seen plenty of WRs miss the same amount of time or more and come back without these issues. There are zero excuses for drops to be a consistent issue, particularly on passes where he is wide open.

No one is above criticism. I criticized Keyton for the same issues at times this season.

My comment was on your assertion that a WR doesn’t have to work on catching footballs bc he’s in the SEC. And if someone misses as much practice as he did that it couldn’t be a reason (or excuse, as you’d call it) for drops.

That is absurd. This isn’t a video game.
 
Tilman literally missed half the season last year. Zero issues with drops when he returned.
By zero issues, I assume you mean issues. Tillman had the lowest drop rate of any receiver in the combine at 4.4%, and then dropped routine throws on return. He also had his routes cut to three after returning. Note Thornton’s improvement after the moved him and reduced his routes. You don’t know what you’re talking about. Stop. Please. Read below regarding routine drops and limited routes. Then go back to bed.

Cedric Tillman scouting report “The uncertainty with Tillman comes mostly from the Tennessee offense. Tennessee's offense uses the wide college splits in a way the NFL can not. On top of that, Tillman played almost exclusively as the right outside WR, and his route tree was mostly limited to go balls, posts, dig routes, slants and stop routes at various depths. He didn't really get to explore a route tree that attacks across the field, underneath, or from the slot. Tillman also has some occasional problems with dropping the routine throws, but considering his strong hands elsewhere, that should be something that can be cleaned up.”
 
By zero issues, I assume you mean issues. Tillman had the lowest drop rate of any receiver in the combine at 4.4%, and then dropped routine throws on return. He also had his routes cut to three after returning. Note Thornton’s improvement after the moved him and reduced his routes. You don’t know what you’re talking about. Stop. Please. Read below regarding routine drops and limited routes. Then go back to bed.

Cedric Tillman scouting report “The uncertainty with Tillman comes mostly from the Tennessee offense. Tennessee's offense uses the wide college splits in a way the NFL can not. On top of that, Tillman played almost exclusively as the right outside WR, and his route tree was mostly limited to go balls, posts, dig routes, slants and stop routes at various depths. He didn't really get to explore a route tree that attacks across the field, underneath, or from the slot. Tillman also has some occasional problems with dropping the routine throws, but considering his strong hands elsewhere, that should be something that can be cleaned up.”
SF, I thought you had already given this dude his goodbye hug. Let the dude go. Some people have a hard time letting go of a thesis that they have pride of authorship in even in the face of sound arguments to the contrary. You can are not going to sway this cat regardless of the soundness of your logic.

I do appreciate the insight you responded with early on to this discussion but at this point we need to just allow his opinion to quietly slip away without providing additional insight and logic that will have little or no affect on his entrenched opinion only to trigger another round.

By the way, I always appreciate the insight you bring to the table. At this point however, I just think it is time to quit poking the bear.
 
By zero issues, I assume you mean issues. Tillman had the lowest drop rate of any receiver in the combine at 4.4%, and then dropped routine throws on return. He also had his routes cut to three after returning. Note Thornton’s improvement after the moved him and reduced his routes. You don’t know what you’re talking about. Stop. Please. Read below regarding routine drops and limited routes. Then go back to bed.

Cedric Tillman scouting report “The uncertainty with Tillman comes mostly from the Tennessee offense. Tennessee's offense uses the wide college splits in a way the NFL can not. On top of that, Tillman played almost exclusively as the right outside WR, and his route tree was mostly limited to go balls, posts, dig routes, slants and stop routes at various depths. He didn't really get to explore a route tree that attacks across the field, underneath, or from the slot. Tillman also has some occasional problems with dropping the routine throws, but considering his strong hands elsewhere, that should be something that can be cleaned up.”

Really, can you point to that please? Cause I just quickly re-watched every offensive series in his return vs UK after several weeks off and he was targeted 6 times in the first half and caught every single one of them (2 were called back due to penalties). Then I quickly (and painfully) re-watched every offensive drive the next week vs UGA game and he caught he every catchable ball thrown to him that game too (1 was uncatchble, and 2 others were DPI's).

Zero drops in 2 straight games despite about 15-20 targets. But I will patiently wait on these routine drops.

I haven't re-watched SoCar yet, but I saw another article stating he had a drop rate if 2.99% last year, so I find it hard to believe he dropped more than 1 pass vs SoCar.
 
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Did they change it because initially they allowed them to have agents for NIL
I may have
Did they change it because initially they allowed them to have agents for NIL
m
Did they change it because initially they allowed them to have agents for NIL
Edit- Agents are allowed so I misspoke.


NIL rules in all states allow players to sign agents who will help secure endorsements, appearances, and the like. And they'll take their cut like they do for other clients. Players can also sign with lawyers and tax experts to help with their finances and contracts.
 
By zero issues, I assume you mean issues. Tillman had the lowest drop rate of any receiver in the combine at 4.4%, and then dropped routine throws on return. He also had his routes cut to three after returning. Note Thornton’s improvement after the moved him and reduced his routes. You don’t know what you’re talking about. Stop. Please. Read below regarding routine drops and limited routes. Then go back to bed.

Cedric Tillman scouting report “The uncertainty with Tillman comes mostly from the Tennessee offense. Tennessee's offense uses the wide college splits in a way the NFL can not. On top of that, Tillman played almost exclusively as the right outside WR, and his route tree was mostly limited to go balls, posts, dig routes, slants and stop routes at various depths. He didn't really get to explore a route tree that attacks across the field, underneath, or from the slot. Tillman also has some occasional problems with dropping the routine throws, but considering his strong hands elsewhere, that should be something that can be cleaned up.”
And by they way, this entire silly argument started because you got your panties in a wad that I had the audacity to criticize Thornton's performance, as if it was some sort of crime. He played poorly in 2023, injuries or not. If you want to talk facts, start there.
 
And by they way, this entire silly argument started because you got your panties in a wad that I had the audacity to criticize Thornton's performance, as if it was some sort of crime. He played poorly in 2023, injuries or not. If you want to talk facts, start there.
i dont think anyone who watched a Tennessee football game last year can say Thornton can be called anything other than a miss at this time. maybe he is better next year, but i dont think they paid him what they did to be a two year project
 
And by they way, this entire silly argument started because you got your panties in a wad that I had the audacity to criticize Thornton's performance, as if it was some sort of crime. He played poorly in 2023, injuries or not. If you want to talk facts, start there.

I wish I could quote all of yalls conversation but I can't.

From a casual observer of this thread (and an avid observer of our team), I can say that Thornton underachieved this year and there's probably legitimate reasons for that, but underachieved nonetheless. That being said, picking his success as a hill to defend and die on is a really, really weird choice for both parties. Sometimes dudes are just... ok...? If I'm betting on him breaking out in a big way next year or not, I'm picking the latter. But I still think the potential is there. I'm definitely not turning down Stewart to keep Thornton there (which is where I think this all started? Idk, I'm not going back in this thread to confirm).
 
Yeah that is why I don’t think Stewart makes sense.
You take talent and let it work itself out in camp. You dont just give someone a spot or let them keep it because you like the guy. You get paid to win. Playing the best possible player gives you a better chance to win. Even if it hurts someones feelings. The NFL is no different in that regard.
 
Thornton missed four practice weeks during the season. Name the “plenty WRs” who missed that much practice. Then divide that group into those who caught lots of balls after. I’ll give you a hint— the fraction looks like this 0/0.
SIAP. Do we know what Thornton’s injury was beyond “lower leg”? I.e., should we temper expectations for next year to allow for lengthier recovery?
 
Don't disagree, but if this dude quit on his team for the portal, I'm out on that kind of guy. Doing it for a bowl game and your draft stock is bad enough, but to walk away mid season? Nah, that's a bridge too far for me.
he didnt "Quit" He was absolutely limited in a dog crap offense. And his coach got fired and im pretty sure his NIL deal fell through aswell. There was a post from the A&M players saying they never got paid as promised.
 
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Good read.

But in regards to Thornton, you say he was injured. Unless that injury was on his hands, I am not buying that as an excuse for his early season woes. He literally dropped 6-7 wide open passes, and at least 2-3 of them would have been easy TDs. Considering he was only getting 2-3 targets per game, dropping half of those opportunities is unacceptable. I'm glad he started coming on at the end, but the dropped passes are going to have to stop if he's to be relied upon going forward.
However, he made progress and the catch he made on the play he was injured was fantastic. I believe he will have a very good 2024.
 
Thornton missed four practice weeks during the season. Name the “plenty WRs” who missed that much practice. Then divide that group into those who caught lots of balls after. I’ll give you a hint— the fraction looks like this 0/0.
I argued earlier in this thread that I wasn’t a fan of bringing in Thornton because he was the 4th best option on Oregons roster and was going to take reps from our HS recruits and hinder their development. If missing so much practice time is such an issue for WRs then why in the world was he getting reps in games while you have guys who have been practicing every week not getting the same amount? Is it because he gives us the best chance to win? It sure doesn’t sound like it if the chance of a guy who misses that much practice has a pretty low chance of catching balls as stated in the post above.

At the end of the day we brought him in as a transfer and have little time to make him a success so you force feed him as much as possible. If you don’t you have essentially wasted a roster spot and whatever NIL money we are giving out. This is the struggle I have with our new age of the transfer portal.
 
However, he made progress and the catch he made on the play he was injured was fantastic. I believe he will have a very good 2024.
He did make some progress in the last couple of games he played. I hope he does have a good 2024 too especially if McCoy doesn’t come back but his history is going to make me cautiously optimistic/pessimistic. I do believe if he isn’t a 2-3+ catch/game and 40+ yd/game performer through the first 4 games they will need to start distributing his reps elsewhere quickly because it just isn’t going to happen at that point.
 
The perception here of inside/outside positions is terribly misguided. Heupel’s O has 30+ basic route groups. Two years ago, we ran about 24 route groups. Many were designed to break cover two and man match with either Hyatt or outside 2 hitting a coverage gap. We used slot as a coverage break. At UCF, Heupel used slot to pick and cross, and ran outside guys into posts deep. Last year, over 90% of our plays came from four primary routes, outside of screens. We ran almost nothing over the middle, no flags, short flags or posts. We ran fly patterns and comebacks almost completely, except in the red zone. Heupel has always pulled routes based on talent and matchups. Last year, the blend of Milton’s skills and challenges combined with available receivers and matchups meant we really limited the playbook. A six foot super-athlete like Matthews or Staley (or Stewart) can play anywhere. Full stop. Stop pretending you know what a slot is because “AP said”. That isn’t how this offense or any similar offense works. Squirrel might have limitations, but that is not true of Staley or Matthews. A 6 foot 180 guy is prime to play inside OR one of the outside positions. Another myth— Thornton didn’t get better because of a position switch. That’s more “I heard it on a podcast” gibberish. He got better because he got over an injury and started to practice. They limited his routes, as they did with the whole offense last year. He can play either position and either position well. He did so all Fall practice before he got hurt. They just decided to get his timing tight with Milton on limited routes, and they all came from that set. Next year, a healthy roster means we’ll do very well in the passing game. Our returning core is good, but I’m very excited about the new guys too. Brazzell gives us a really great options for high balls, back shoulder throws and go routes on the outside. He may not be Julio Jones, but he is a nightmare for a six foot corner. Staes is a physical mismatch in the middle and has the speed to pull a safety into dead zones. Matthews and Staley are the prototypical 6 foot 180 athletes that could play safety or WR in the NFL. You love having that body type on O. No one knows Bru’s recovery trajectory, but he is world class blocker, and plays a tough game on smaller guys. Don’t forget that Seldon is the first RB we’ve had since Kamara that lives to catch a short ball on the run. He has the hands, body and speed to make teams respect him when he releases. It’s the most promising WR room we’ve had in a very long time. Playing time is going to be tight, but what a great group.
I honestly thought that Milton just wasn’t reading the middle well all year. The drags seemed open almost every game and he almost never hit them. The fades were his favorite ball to throw not being a screen. I wish he used his legs more to open that game up. Honestly, when I knew we were screwed was in the Florida game when we didn’t really capitalize on a double move from a screen and then we did and Milton didn’t read it out. I know castles wasn’t the fastest guy but he could bully a backer or safety on a flag or a five yard in or heck just a five yard curl.

I had questions but you pretty much answered them.
How much was it on Milton processing and the WR group not clicking?
 
The perception here of inside/outside positions is terribly misguided. Heupel’s O has 30+ basic route groups. Two years ago, we ran about 24 route groups. Many were designed to break cover two and man match with either Hyatt or outside 2 hitting a coverage gap. We used slot as a coverage break. At UCF, Heupel used slot to pick and cross, and ran outside guys into posts deep. Last year, over 90% of our plays came from four primary routes, outside of screens. We ran almost nothing over the middle, no flags, short flags or posts. We ran fly patterns and comebacks almost completely, except in the red zone. Heupel has always pulled routes based on talent and matchups. Last year, the blend of Milton’s skills and challenges combined with available receivers and matchups meant we really limited the playbook. A six foot super-athlete like Matthews or Staley (or Stewart) can play anywhere. Full stop. Stop pretending you know what a slot is because “AP said”. That isn’t how this offense or any similar offense works. Squirrel might have limitations, but that is not true of Staley or Matthews. A 6 foot 180 guy is prime to play inside OR one of the outside positions. Another myth— Thornton didn’t get better because of a position switch. That’s more “I heard it on a podcast” gibberish. He got better because he got over an injury and started to practice. They limited his routes, as they did with the whole offense last year. He can play either position and either position well. He did so all Fall practice before he got hurt. They just decided to get his timing tight with Milton on limited routes, and they all came from that set. Next year, a healthy roster means we’ll do very well in the passing game. Our returning core is good, but I’m very excited about the new guys too. Brazzell gives us a really great options for high balls, back shoulder throws and go routes on the outside. He may not be Julio Jones, but he is a nightmare for a six foot corner. Staes is a physical mismatch in the middle and has the speed to pull a safety into dead zones. Matthews and Staley are the prototypical 6 foot 180 athletes that could play safety or WR in the NFL. You love having that body type on O. No one knows Bru’s recovery trajectory, but he is world class blocker, and plays a tough game on smaller guys. Don’t forget that Seldon is the first RB we’ve had since Kamara that lives to catch a short ball on the run. He has the hands, body and speed to make teams respect him when he releases. It’s the most promising WR room we’ve had in a very long time. Playing time is going to be tight, but what a great group.
Question: did Heupel constrain his cover 2 beaters this year to keep Middle of the field open for the RB room we had. Obviously it was our strength but I don’t feel like we adapted the best we could this year and couldn’t of picked a worst time to have a weak TE room.
 
Good read.

But in regards to Thornton, you say he was injured. Unless that injury was on his hands, I am not buying that as an excuse for his early season woes. He literally dropped 6-7 wide open passes, and at least 2-3 of them would have been easy TDs. Considering he was only getting 2-3 targets per game, dropping half of those opportunities is unacceptable. I'm glad he started coming on at the end, but the dropped passes are going to have to stop if he's to be relied upon going forward.
He struggled early on. That’s it. So what? He was looking much better when he switched to the outside towards the end of the season. I don’t know why some have just given up on Thorton. He has the ability to be WR #1 in this offense.
 
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