United States, Cuba to normalize relations

#51
#51
I have no problem conditioning it on some tolerance for political dissent, although it has to be something reasonably likely to be agreed to. Otherwise its just a way to nuke it without being honest.
 
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#55
#55
lawgator1 said:
I have no problem conditioning it on some tolerance for political dissent, although it has to be something reasonably likely to be agreed to. Otherwise its just a way to nuke it without being honest.
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It's not our job to fix their political system.
 
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#57
#57
golfballs said:
Quite the parallel...
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It's not our business to tell them how to treat their citizens. Withholding trade and good relations does not hurt the people in power. They've been in power for 50+ years. It only hurts the common people who suffer the woes of a crap economy.

"Don't hurt your people for political dissent, or we'll hurt them too." - America
 
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#60
#60
n_huffhines said:
It's not our business to tell them how to treat their citizens. Withholding trade and good relations does not hurt the people in power. They've been in power for 50+ years. It only hurts the common people who suffer the woes of a crap economy.

"Don't hurt your people for political dissent, or we'll hurt them too." - America
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It's not mutually exclusive.
 
#61
#61
Vol8188 said:
It's not our job to fix their political system.
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By that standard, we should normalize relations with Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, etc. We use trade relations as a weapon to effect internal change in other countries' policies literally every single day.

Again, I'm not saying we should demand they adopt our First Amendment, but it makes sense to me to say we will do this but only if there are some at least some reasonable relaxations on a few things that are important to our core values.
 
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#63
#63
If Cuba is considered a state that sponsors terrorism, are we as well?
 

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#64
#64
lawgator1 said:
By that standard, we should normalize relations with Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, etc. We use trade relations as a weapon to effect internal change in other countries' policies literally every single day.

Again, I'm not saying we should demand they adopt our First Amendment, but it makes sense to me to say we will do this but only if there are some at least some reasonable relaxations on a few things that are important to our core values.
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And it's clearly working so well!
 
#66
#66
lawgator1 said:
Apparently it's working in combination with oil prices to push Russia to the brink of recession. Putin is about to need our help in a very meaningful way.
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And this hurts Russian leadership how? It hurts the people. The leadership will be just fine.

So our leaders are creating recessions here and in Russia. They're really good at what they do.

I'm sure the Russian economy would be doing just fine without our sanctions. :ermm:
 
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#67
#67
n_huffhines said:
And this hurts Russian leadership how? It hurts the people. The leadership will be just fine.

So our leaders are creating recessions here and in Russia. They're really good at what they do.

I'm sure the Russian economy would be doing just fine without our sanctions. :ermm:
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Well, if they do go under that might be it for Putin. He'll get blamed by the people. And if he does want us to relax trade and help bail him out, he'll need to let the Ukraine plan go. So yes, there is at least potential there for this to have some value.
 
#68
#68
lawgator1 said:
Well, if they do go under that might be it for Putin. He'll get blamed by the people. And if he does want us to relax trade and help bail him out, he'll need to let the Ukraine plan go. So yes, there is at least potential there for this to have some value.
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And how exactly would the people of Russia do anything about putin?
 
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#69
#69
lawgator1 said:
Not really. He is as you say doing what he can by EO. Only Congress can lift the embargo, is my understanding. Will be interesting to see how the GOP plays this. If its just whining like yours that Obama did a bunch by EO, even mainstream GOPers will just roll their eyes.

Come on, get off your duff, GOP, do something. Here's a perfect opportunity to mend some fences with Hispanic voters. Its being given to them on a silver platter. Now watch them f it up.
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I'm not whining - I'm discussing process and decision making.

Not only was this not brought to Congress for input; it wasn't brought to the American people.

Can you recall Obama making a case to the American people about our relations with Cuba? Don't you believe a case should be made for such a major policy shift PRIOR to undertaking it? To hell with representative government I guess - he was elected so he doesn't have to even solicit input from those he governs?

I support the end result but the means are just another example of an imperial presidency. It's clear that our current POTUS does not even bother to solicit input from those he rules over. January 2016 cannot get here soon enough.
 
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#70
#70
Yes, let the U.S. help out all of the communist nations that we can, and let us now be thankful we can have those over-rated cuban cigars.

This Monumental policy change is sure to seal King Obama's legacy as the greatest communist president in U.S. history.
 
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#71
#71
lawgator1 said:
Well, if they do go under that might be it for Putin. He'll get blamed by the people. And if he does want us to relax trade and help bail him out, he'll need to let the Ukraine plan go. So yes, there is at least potential there for this to have some value.
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This is the playbook.

- Putin blames American sanctions
- Russians believe him, thus America is the enemy, giving him more power to oppose us

If Putin somehow still gets ousted, they'll replace him with someone like Putin that we will keep sanctioning.

Were you born yesterday?
 
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#72
#72
volinbham said:
I'm not whining - I'm discussing process and decision making.

Not only was this not brought to Congress for input; it wasn't brought to the American people.

Can you recall Obama making a case to the American people about our relations with Cuba? Don't you believe a case should be made for such a major policy shift PRIOR to undertaking it? To hell with representative government I guess - he was elected so he doesn't have to even solicit input from those he governs?

I support the end result but the means are just another example of an imperial presidency. It's clear that our current POTUS does not even bother to solicit input from those he rules over. January 2016 cannot get here soon enough.
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Emperors don't consult with the peasants..
 
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#73
#73
Vol8188 said:
If congress doesn't like it, all they have to do is actually pass a bill.
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Which is unlikely since they are in competition with the "do nothings" of the 40's.

Now that they're on break, I'm worried that the legislative process will literally start working in reverse.
 
#75
#75
volinbham said:
I'm not whining - I'm discussing process and decision making.

Not only was this not brought to Congress for input; it wasn't brought to the American people.
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Like what, a national referendum on whether there's a U.S. embassy in Cuba?
 
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