USU Scrimmage

[RiseToTheTop]

I'm not a fan of hoping JC production turns to FBS production. We have a guy who had 49 for 757 yards in JC and he won't crack the 2 deep. we also have a guy coming in who switched from west virginia. I hope he has talent.

no offense but there is the type of JC WRs that Utah State signs and there is the JC WRs that Tennessee signs. two different birds. USU doesn't sign Cordarrelle Pattersons and Von Pearsons.

 

[sjt18]

I'm glad you're using these powers on the enemy now.

:good!:

I still have some concerns and reservations. Still don't like the results in 2013. But VERY ready to move on with "hope" toward a much brighter future.

Part of me wants to believe that Jones drew a line between the old and new. He wanted to finish the "old" last year while preparing returning guys for the "new". Not proven... but it seems to make sense in light of the "shape" of returning DL's. Lighter. Quicker. It makes sense to me considering some of the guys who could have helped last fall but seem to be held back instead.

I think it will be somewhat difficult for the DL to disappoint me even if they aren't very good. I won't miss seeing McCullers getting pushed into AJ's lap. I appreciate the effort of Jacques Smith but won't miss the lack of production. Hood deserves a special place because of devotion and heart... but he wasn't very talented. I think I will miss Miller and Walls. Out of all of UT's holdovers through this valley... I think those guys got screwed over the worst. Both had the talent to become very good players but it was squandered.

 

[sjt18]

I'm not a fan of hoping JC production turns to FBS production. We have a guy who had 49 for 757 yards in JC and he won't crack the 2 deep. we also have a guy coming in who switched from west virginia. I hope he has talent.

Are you suggesting that Von Pearson wouldn't be the best WR on your roster if he were there? He wouldn't make your two deep even?

We have seen good JC's and bad ones. All indications are that Pearson is extraordinary. I don't expect him to be on the Patterson level (who is) but he will be an outstanding WR. He's a very gifted player.

 

[ficklez]

Not throwing stones at you but I'd say he threw almost that many in a single game highlight video I saw.

USU doesn't seem to get out of character on 3rd and long. They still tend to throw it short and let guys run.

In just the few video highlight clips I watched this morning, Keeton threw up some ducks. He may correct it... but it is a potential problem for you if UT forces him to throw it down field.

On 3rd and 10+ yds to go, Keeton drops to 47%. Worley was at 50% vs much better competition. That is a better measure of throwing the ball deep.

I am unsure if USU tracks stats like that but I have seem them on Bray... I just cannot remember where. He did complete a very high percentage of his passes that were caught 10 yds+ from the LOS.

He "can". But then he floats up some ducks. Just a cusory look at his highlights suggested he does not throw very well when he has to put air under the ball.


No. I said the starters had about 800 between them.

It isn't just inexperience. It is the combination of experience and talent.

Your guys may surprise me but it is far more common when mid-majors "pop up" on to the screen on the strength of some good but overlooked players... that they fade just as quickly when those particular players are gone. Nevada makes a good example of that. Mid-majors that have runs like Boise are exceptions.

You are the expert on your team... but Hill has one 100 yd game to his credit and that against a FCS school. He only has 75 career attempts and under 346 yds vs FBS opponents.

Lane has been a career back up for UT. He has two 100 yd games against FBS schools and avg's close to 5 ypc. His avg per carry vs the SEC is about the same as Hill's against all FBS opponents... including some of the really very bad teams that you all have played recently like Hawaii last year.

You may be correct about UT's published weights. Coleman is definitely bigger than 180 now. Closer to 200 lbs iirc. Not something you would necessarily know but UT doesn't routinely update their height/weight tables. There is a very slim chance that UT will start a DB that weighs under 185. IIRC, Moseley has already gained about 20 lbs as a Fr who might contribute at CB.

But that isn't the real issue. The issue is the match ups. UT is huge at WR. Tall and big. Your depth chart lists one WR over 200 lbs that I saw. At least 5 WR's for UT in their regular rotation will weigh over 200 lbs... and as a group... they are likely faster and more athletic than USU's guys.


Good info. That certainly doesn't help your cause. On the other side, UT is going smaller/quicker on the DL this year. After being force fed for a few years to try to become 3-4 DL's, some of these guys will play at a more natural weight.

keeton is 41/68 on 3rd and 10+ which is 60%. The number you used was just for the first 5 games last year. I dont think 17 passes total is a big enough sample size, especially when the other 2 seasons suggest he's more accurate. Again, I've watched keeton throw well over 1,000 passes, if not 2,000, because I went to every summer practice he had, all of the games, etc. And I would say he throws a very good deep ball. I'd say it is one of his strengths, even, though that mostly stems from his decision making. he doesn't throw it deep if it isn't open.


and i understand what you say about surprise players, but those players are still here. we have a LB who is rated 2nd at his position in the nation for the draft. keeton was on the heisman watch list. our overall talent right now is above what it has been recently, even considering Wagner/Turbin who are MVP/strong role player level guys in the NFL right now.

 

[ficklez]

Are you suggesting that Von Pearson wouldn't be the best WR on your roster if he were there? He wouldn't make your two deep even?

We have seen good JC's and bad ones. All indications are that Pearson is extraordinary. I don't expect him to be on the Patterson level (who is) but he will be an outstanding WR. He's a very gifted player.

I don't know what made you think I was saying that, especially when I said this "I'd take your freshman WR recruits over ours without hesitation." How you get "he wouldn't break our 2 deep" out of that is out of my grasp. I said, and i thought i said it fairly explicitly, that I don't really think you can project how a player will do based just on JC stats.

 

[ficklez]

sorry one more thing
"But that isn't the real issue. The issue is the match ups. UT is huge at WR. Tall and big. Your depth chart lists one WR over 200 lbs that I saw. At least 5 WR's for UT in their regular rotation will weigh over 200 lbs... and as a group... they are likely faster and more athletic than USU's guys."

I don't know what the weight has to do with it. I guess it makes it easier to fight for balls? But USU has more guys than UT over 6 feet tall. I'd probably take 6 feet tall before I'd take 200 pounds for a receiver. Also keep in mind you're looking at the spring depth chart with injured guys being held out and our JC guys not on there. Though I do think that fairly shows who our WRs are, it isn't accurate for gameday at a lot of other positions.

 

[sjt18]

I don't know what made you think I was saying that, especially when I said this "I'd take your freshman WR recruits over ours without hesitation." How you get "he wouldn't break our 2 deep" out of that is out of my grasp. I said, and i thought i said it fairly explicitly, that I don't really think you can project how a player will do based just on JC stats.

You answered a post about Pearson with a post saying that you had a productive JUCO WR that wouldn't break into the 2 deep. What WAS your point if it was not to discount Pearson's ability by comparison with your JUCO?

 

[ficklez]

You answered a post about Pearson with a post saying that you had a productive JUCO WR that wouldn't break into the 2 deep. What WAS your point if it was not to discount Pearson's ability by comparison with your JUCO?

my point was exactly what i said with it. That you can't always judge a WR by his stats. Our guy has good stats, but he isn't projected to actually be that good.

Another example. Alex Wheat is my favorite guy on the team. He was a JC WR who had 47 receptions for 854 yards (18.2 ypg) and 11 touchdowns. In two years at usu, he has 1 catch for 6 yards and about 85,000 drops in practice. Hes 6-4/200something so I hope he can pull it out. We thought he'd be great from Jc. He was a big get, and highly rated for a JC WR. But he kind of busted, at least so far.

 

[sjt18]

sorry one more thing
"But that isn't the real issue. The issue is the match ups. UT is huge at WR. Tall and big. Your depth chart lists one WR over 200 lbs that I saw. At least 5 WR's for UT in their regular rotation will weigh over 200 lbs... and as a group... they are likely faster and more athletic than USU's guys."

I don't know what the weight has to do with it. I guess it makes it easier to fight for balls? But USU has more guys than UT over 6 feet tall. I'd probably take 6 feet tall before I'd take 200 pounds for a receiver. Also keep in mind you're looking at the spring depth chart with injured guys being held out and our JC guys not on there. Though I do think that fairly shows who our WRs are, it isn't accurate for gameday at a lot of other positions.

What difference does weight make? By and large, it equates to muscle mass... which matters ALOT.

So you seem to now be arguing that USU IS as talented or more so than UT? That seems to be the implication. I have seen you type in non-specific terms that UT was more talented... then when specific comparisons are made you object.

I am going to make a not so bold statement here. UT's DB's will have MUCH less difficulty matching up athletically with your WR's than yours will to UT's.


Eight of the 10 scholarship WR's UT has on the spring roster are 6' or taller. They'll add another this summer with Wharton. D Young is playing RB now but will probably move all over the field and return kicks. Pig Howard who is one of the guys under 6' may or may not play this fall. Ryan Jenkins who is listed at 5'11" probably won't play this fall due to injury.

To sum up... UT will play 6-9 WR's this fall and chances are that NONE of them will be under 6' tall.

 

[RiseToTheTop]

my point was exactly what i said with it. That you can't always judge a WR by his stats. Our guy has good stats, but he isn't projected to actually be that good.

Another example. Alex Wheat is my favorite guy on the team. He was a JC WR who had 47 receptions for 854 yards (18.2 ypg) and 11 touchdowns. In two years at usu, he has 1 catch for 6 yards and about 85,000 drops in practice. Hes 6-4/200something so I hope he can pull it out. We thought he'd be great from Jc. He was a big get, and highly rated for a JC WR. But he kind of busted, at least so far.

Alex wheat was a low three star type kid even in JUCO. Pearson was discovered late and just missed 5-Star status. Kid is a freak. Sometimes when you see elite talent you just know. You can try to discredit the WR and RB talent that we have but you will find out soon enough were not the scrubs you think we are.DB Cam Sutton will also be a potential first round pick in 2 years. Von Pearson has been abusing him way worse than anybody did last yr in the SEC.

 

[sjt18]

my point was exactly what i said with it. That you can't always judge a WR by his stats. Our guy has good stats, but he isn't projected to actually be that good.

Another example. Alex Wheat is my favorite guy on the team. He was a JC WR who had 47 receptions for 854 yards (18.2 ypg) and 11 touchdowns. In two years at usu, he has 1 catch for 6 yards and about 85,000 drops in practice. Hes 6-4/200something so I hope he can pull it out. We thought he'd be great from Jc. He was a big get, and highly rated for a JC WR. But he kind of busted, at least so far.

We've seen them come and go. If Pearson's head is screwed on straight and from all reports it is... he's going to be a nightmare for every team UT plays and especially in light of the development of North, Croom, et al.

I don't think he has the top end speed that Patterson had (few do). But he's made some moves with the ball in his hands that look just like Patterson. AND... he's already a more polished WR than Patterson. Patterson never really learned to be a good technician at UT. He rounded off routes, blocked no one, got lost on plays, ran wrong routes,.... he was just raw athleticism. Get him the ball and let him go.

Pearson has great athleticism but he IS a "wide receiver" by trade.

 

[sjt18]

Do you have an updated USU roster that shows the missing players? Could you flesh out more which ones you think can contribute?

For what very little it might be worth. I saw only one CB and 2 S's on USU's spring roster over 6' tall. UT lists 6 DB's over 6' with 3 more arriving this fall- 9 of 15. I just counted scholarship players for UT but do not know who is and is not on scholarship for USU.

 

[sjt18]

Alex wheat was a low three star type kid even in JUCO. Pearson was discovered late and just missed 5-Star status. Kid is a freak. Sometimes when you see elite talent you just know. .

Yep. Once discovered, Pearson didn't remain a secret for long. He turned the head of everyone who saw him.

 

[ficklez]

What difference does weight make? By and large, it equates to muscle mass... which matters ALOT.

So you seem to now be arguing that USU IS as talented or more so than UT? That seems to be the implication. I have seen you type in non-specific terms that UT was more talented... then when specific comparisons are made you object.

I am going to make a not so bold statement here. UT's DB's will have MUCH less difficulty matching up athletically with your WR's than yours will to UT's.


Eight of the 10 scholarship WR's UT has on the spring roster are 6' or taller. They'll add another this summer with Wharton. D Young is playing RB now but will probably move all over the field and return kicks. Pig Howard who is one of the guys under 6' may or may not play this fall. Ryan Jenkins who is listed at 5'11" probably won't play this fall due to injury.

To sum up... UT will play 6-9 WR's this fall and chances are that NONE of them will be under 6' tall.

not what I'm saying at all. I feel like ive been reasonable and unbiased, but you keep bending everything I say to try to fit some unbalanced extreme that I'm supposedly arguing. what i'm saying is that you keep pointing out what you feel are deficiencies that are not deficiencies. You say our DBs are small, but they aren't, they're the same size as yours. You say our WRs are small, but they're taller than yours. you're taking meaningless numbers (200 pounds) and setting that as a baseline to critique a player. had you set that line to 194 pounds, the numbers would have come out differently. you did the same thing with tackles. usu loses 7 of top 11. so what? UT loses 8 of 14. 4 of top 5 TFL. 11 out of 18 sacks.

to better illustrate my point, consider this. You say USU WRs are going to have trouble because they're under 200 pounds. 5 out of the top 10 receivers in the nation last year were under 200 pounds. 2 were under 180 pounds. 22/42 WRs on CBS nfl draft board projected to have their name called are under 200 pounds. I just don't see what 200 pounds proves.

as for our DBs being small, they're always small everywhere. 4 of the top 20 in interceptions were 6-0 or over. 5 were under 5'11. They're no smaller than anywhere else.

it's just a bogus point to make IMO.

 

[RiseToTheTop]

Yep. Once discovered, Pearson didn't remain a secret for long. He turned the head of everyone who saw him.

yep.Oregon and FSU came in late and begged him but he said no thank you. im sure others were calling. but he shut it down very fast. ESPN literally got his film late, evaluated him and moved him immediately to No. 2 Overall JUCO prospect.

 

[ficklez]

Yep. Once discovered, Pearson didn't remain a secret for long. He turned the head of everyone who saw him.

and this goes to only prove my point. Stats aren't indicative. I'm more impressed by his stars than by his stats. The post i quoted, and that you have taken my post out of context from, was saying he was good because of his stats.

 

[RiseToTheTop]

Croom is coming into his third yr at UT and I'm hoping at some point he gives us the Kelvin Benjamin dynamic FSU had. Both were 4 Star WRs that took a little bit of developing. KB came on late in his career and by all reports Jason looks better than he's ever looked this spring. He actually played well the last couple games last yr. he was the only WR last yr that really buried DBs in the run game with his blocking. North will get there with that too. It's crazy to think you can take the average 5'10 180lb DB and Jason has a legit has 7inches and 50+lbs on him.

 

[BruiserVol]

Our starting wr's will go:
6'5
6'4
6'3
6'3
6'1

These are the ones that I think would probably start or switch. The two deep after the new talent comes in will be great.

Rb that can catch as well and create mismatches 6'3

TE 6'6

 

[sjt18]

not what I'm saying at all. I feel like ive been reasonable and unbiased, but you keep bending everything I say to try to fit some unbalanced extreme that I'm supposedly arguing. what i'm saying is that you keep pointing out what you feel are deficiencies that are not deficiencies.

No. I'm trying to get you to make specific acknowledgements that match your general admission that UT has more talent. Again, you say that in the "abstract" but when it comes to specific units, players, or positions... you do not admit deficiencies.

You say our DBs are small, but they aren't, they're the same size as yours.

Except that they aren't... unless they are bigger than listed. UT's ARE bigger than listed. Moseley was listed at 5'11" 165 when he arrived. Going into spring it was reported that he had gained between 15-20 lbs.

You say our WRs are small, but they're taller than yours.

Your spring depth chart (provided by one of you guys) lists 4 of six in the two deep under 6'. UT may not have a single WR in their first 9 this fall under 6' tall.

(I found a depth chart that shows 4 of the six at 6' or better. That one more accurate?)

I believe only one was over 200 lbs. you're taking meaningless numbers (200 pounds) and setting that as a baseline to critique a player. had you set that line to 194 pounds, the numbers would have come out differently.

Or just as easily set it at 210 or 220 or better yet plot the height to weight ratios for the two teams against height. Just about any way you want to make that comparison UT's WR's are "bigger". They're tall and NOT skinny. They're big AND athletic.

you did the same thing with tackles. usu loses 7 of top 11. so what? UT loses 8 of 14. 4 of top 5 TFL. 11 out of 18 sacks.

Just be plain about it then. You believe that USU has better players, right? If not, in what SPECIFIC way does UT have more talent? So far your only admitted concern when it comes to matching up with UT is your OL.

to better illustrate my point, consider this. You say USU WRs are going to have trouble because they're under 200 pounds.

Not what I said. I said that USU's DB's would have more trouble matching up than UT's would. That isn't just because of height. It is because of overall size to include weight and muscle. It is because of athleticism as well.

5 out of the top 10 receivers in the nation last year were under 200 pounds. 2 were under 180 pounds. 22/42 WRs on CBS nfl draft board are under 200 pounds. I just don't see what 200 pounds proves.

It generally speaking proves strength and muscle mass. Do you disagree or did you somehow miss that in my earlier response?

as for our DBs being small, they're always small everywhere. 4 of the top 20 in interceptions were 6-0 or over. 5 were under 5'11. They're no smaller than anywhere else.

it's just a bogus point to make IMO.

So your point is that your DB's are not in an athletic mismatch vs UT's WR talent? If not... then what meaningful point do you have? Size, muscle mass, length, quickness, speed, et al... are critical to DB/WR matchups, right?

 

[sjt18]

Croom is coming into his third yr at UT and I'm hoping at some point he gives us the Kelvin Benjamin dynamic FSU had. Both were 4 Star WRs that took a little bit of developing. KB came on late in his career and by all reports Jason looks better than he's ever looked this spring. He actually played well the last couple games last yr. he was the only WR last yr that really buried DBs in the run game with his blocking. North will get there with that too. It's crazy to think you can take the average 5'10 180lb DB and Jason has a legit has 7inches and 50+lbs on him.

If Croom catches the ball consistently, he is going to be nearly impossible to cover considering the talent around him won't allow double teams or bracketing.

I would guess that a big portion of UT's season comes down to how well UT's QB's and WR's break down zone D's. I think they'll see alot of those and some "junk" D's designed to take guys away one at a time and confuse the QB.

"On the hoof", this looks like the best top 4 WR's since UT had Meachem, Swain, Smith, and Brown... but significantly more athletic and bigger.

 

[RiseToTheTop]

If Croom catches the ball consistently, he is going to be nearly impossible to cover considering the talent around him won't allow double teams or bracketing.

I would guess that a big portion of UT's season comes down to how well UT's QB's and WR's break down zone D's. I think they'll see alot of those and some "junk" D's designed to take guys away one at a time and confuse the QB.

"On the hoof", this looks like the best top 4 WR's since UT had Meachem, Swain, Smith, and Brown... but significantly more athletic and bigger.

totally agree. i know they are young but we are talking about some very special talents in this group. you def wont be able to press man on these guys bc somebody will get open.their young all the way down to QB so alot of disguises will be coming their way for sure. totally agree about the zone defense play.

 

[butchna]

my point was exactly what i said with it. That you can't always judge a WR by his stats. Our guy has good stats, but he isn't projected to actually be that good.

Another example. Alex Wheat is my favorite guy on the team. He was a JC WR who had 47 receptions for 854 yards (18.2 ypg) and 11 touchdowns. In two years at usu, he has 1 catch for 6 yards and about 85,000 drops in practice. Hes 6-4/200something so I hope he can pull it out. We thought he'd be great from Jc. He was a big get, and highly rated for a JC WR. But he kind of busted, at least so far.

We have a different strategy of recruiting JC receivers...we go after ones THAT DON'T SUCK!!!...most recent example CP...but going all the way back to Anthony Miller...don't go tattling to the USU staff...I told you this in confidence :shhh:

 

[MustafaRasta]

I'm glad you're using these powers on the enemy now.

Captain Quotation is fighting for our side now!

Welcome back Cap. I guess that secret Avenger thing was just a phase.

 

[Vol4life25]

I suggest you not respond to my posts. According to you, I'm the most annoying poster on VN. The question arises again, why are you reading my posts instead of placing me on IGNORE? The leave me alone and I'll leave you alone logic works for those with sense enough to follow it. Can you?

I'm so hot I give these **** tan lines..

Ahhhhhhhhh

 

[Orange_Crush]

sorry one more thing
"But that isn't the real issue. The issue is the match ups. UT is huge at WR. Tall and big. Your depth chart lists one WR over 200 lbs that I saw. At least 5 WR's for UT in their regular rotation will weigh over 200 lbs... and as a group... they are likely faster and more athletic than USU's guys."

I don't know what the weight has to do with it. I guess it makes it easier to fight for balls? But USU has more guys than UT over 6 feet tall. I'd probably take 6 feet tall before I'd take 200 pounds for a receiver. Also keep in mind you're looking at the spring depth chart with injured guys being held out and our JC guys not on there. Though I do think that fairly shows who our WRs are, it isn't accurate for gameday at a lot of other positions.

I'm taking it you never played DB.