UT under potential NCAA investigation for NIL

[TN Jed]

Danny, from the top rope!

 

[VolArmy74]

But that won’t work with colleges sports due to title IX.

Look at the scholarship payout for sold out men’s baseball works today where a lot of guys are only getting 1/4 of a scholarship where every lady on the women’s knitting team gets a full scholarship and they have very little revenue/attendance.

Title IX only mentions that equal numbers of positions be available for each sex. If you have 250 male athletes you must provide 250 slots for female athletes. It doesn't say they have to have equal facilities, equal travel, equal expenditures on the programs, or in this case, equal pay.

 

[cherokeeeVOL]

 

[Delmar]

The NCAA is in a no win situation at this point. EVERY move it makes generates a lawsuit at this point because everyone knows it's about to die and can't win.

15 seconds after the NCAA is dead, VN will be full of posts asking "Who killed college football?"

The NCAA sucks. They've sucked and mismanaged college athletics for decades and decades BUT they are the only thing holding college football from becoming completely a professional league.

I'm not screaming "don't sue them about this" but I am screaming "think about what happens if you kill the NCAA completely."

The courts have already determined that the way the NCAA has “managed” things is illegal and will not be allowed. Any attempt at limiting what these athletes can earn is going to lose. Period. The point is they can’t even partially “control” NIL. The answer to your question is that sadly it is headed toward contracts between the school and the player as an employee and then some control (transfers) can be managed through the contract. And that is going to lead to the separation of the haves and the have nots. The haves will have their own governing body led by a commissioner like the NFL. Just another version of pro football.

However even if contracts with the schools are done, that still won’t stop the athletes from taking advantage of all the NIL money they can get. No different than Peyton Manning signing with a marketing agent to get as many commercials and endorsements as he can. Limiting income for these athletes has gone the way of the dodo bird. And I think the NCAA is headed that way too. Just a matter of time.

 

[Dadof2Vols]

Title IX only mentions that equal numbers of positions be available for each sex. If you have 250 male athletes you must provide 250 slots for female athletes. It doesn't say they have to have equal facilities, equal travel, equal expenditures on the programs, or in this case, equal pay.

I thought today the universities keep the number of scholarships for men and women the same to stay in title IX compliance.

if that’s the case I would be shocked if they were able to have uneven pay expenditures for men vs women.

The pay will open a whole new can of worms unless it is truly its own business entity with no relation to university except licensing the university name.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

The courts have already determined that the way the NCAA has “managed” things is illegal and will not be allowed. Any attempt at limiting what these athletes can earn is going to lose. Period. The point is they can’t even partially “control” NIL. The answer to your question is that sadly it is headed toward contracts between the school and the player as an employee and then some control (transfers) can be managed through the contract. And that is going to lead to the separation of the haves and the have nots. The haves will have their own governing body led by a commissioner like the NFL. Just another version of pro football.

However even if contracts with the schools are done, that still won’t stop the athletes from taking advantage of all the NIL money they can get. No different than Peyton Manning signing with a marketing agent to get as many commercials and endorsements as he can. Limiting income for these athletes has gone the way of the dodo bird. And I think the NCAA is headed that way too. Just a matter of time.

Yes. The suffering comes for athletes that aren't elite and aren't valuable enough to get paid but would still benefit from a scholarship and college athlete experience at a smaller school.

I don't see a way for smaller schools to survive if they have to pay athletes even a small amount beyond a scholarship. I envision even schools like UT looking hard at sports, as they do with academics, and asking "is this worth it to our school?"

Smaller schools will simply fold up athletics as too expensive except at club sports or intramurals. Lots of young people get screwed.

The NCAA should have been working on this for 40 years. They didn't. Young people whose parents may not have been born back then get screwed now.

 

[Delmar]

Yes. But the players would be absolutely brain dead to bargain away their ability to earn outside income.

Gronk said he never touched his NFL salary and lived entirely off of his endorsement and commercial money.

It's not realistic to think players are going to agree to "I'm making all his NIL money, but I'm going to quit that and just take a salary from the school." Ridiculous.

We certainly agree on those points. They aren’t going to give up the ability to make outside income now that it’s there. Given what the courts have said, I just don’t see any way for the NCAA to enforce any limitations on payments through NIL so what good are they? If they try to limit anything, they will get their pants sued off and will lose every time.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

We certainly agree on those points. They aren’t going to give up the ability to make outside income now that it’s there. Given what the courts have said, I just don’t see any way for the NCAA to enforce any limitations on payments through NIL so what good are they? If they try to limit anything, they will get their pants sued off and will lose every time.

The reason the NCAA allowed NIL in the first place was after the Alston ruling they didn't want another lawsuit because that might lead to "players are employees" even faster.

Now, they tried to restrict NIL and they're going to get gutted, if not have all of amateur college athletics declared professional sports.

I've just asked that the NCAA die slowly but it seems they're ready to fall on the sword now and it's absolutely awful for most athletes and most schools.

 

[CAVPUT]

Good point. Remember the brag. Inconsistent enforcement. NCAA is an abitrary association that is weaponized to destroy programs that are not in power in thier organization.

With the NCAA, enforcement has never been consistent in any sport. Everything has been to the benefit of the blue bloods of each respective sport. There's decades of cases that confirm this. We've always been one of the programs the NCAA turns to when they need to rattle some cages. We continually allowed ourselves to be tied to the whipping post and flogged while the elites just smiled and joked about it. The beatings will continue until UT stands up and says "no more" and swings back. This is the line in the sand moment. Hope our university and fan base will see it through. No compromises. If we allow that, they'll be back again...and again....and again. Until they pay with a pound of flesh, the abuse continues. There needs to be pain and consequences this time. Once again we're behind the recruiting 8 ball as well as having to worry about the upcoming spring portal. And we still have the scholarship limits from 18 mos ago. Yeah, enough is enough.

 

[GrayWaterCanine]

Title IX only mentions that equal numbers of positions be available for each sex. If you have 250 male athletes you must provide 250 slots for female athletes. It doesn't say they have to have equal facilities, equal travel, equal expenditures on the programs, or in this case, equal pay.

Actually, your description is mostly incorrect. For example, look at the number of lawsuits under Title IX for disparities in male vs female facilities and equipment.

 

[CAVPUT]

You do know that the NCAA has been stupid enough to take several bad cases to court and lose here the last few years.

Their arrogance is astoundingly dumb.

Until someone takes a pound of flesh from the NCAA, they'll continue. What do they have to lose? Like this current witch hunt, the only price being paid is by UT and our athletes. The longer the cloud remains the more concern in the minds of recruits, their families and our current players.

 

[utvolpj]

Danny just texted a few hundred thousand friends

 

[DirtyDawg]

I had to give you the upvote for the gif. Ironically enough, I just watched Jeremiah Johnson for the first time last night. Really good movie! I love finding gems like this movie that were before my time! Apologies for being off topic.

On topic, as I said before, NCAA is targeting UT because they are attempting to set a precedent and need a big name to go after. They think they have something on the Nico situation and mistakenly assumed that UT would just roll over again.

I’m not educated in this enough to have a confident prediction of what will transpire, but I’m delighted to see that UT didn’t just roll over. I hope it works out for the best, for the Vols and the rest of us.

 

[05_never_again]

Yes, but all players connected to MLB get paid.

A school like Carson-Newman, NCAA DII, is still part of the NCAA. If the model is not legal for the NCAA and players need to be paid, C-N is part of the NCAA.

Do they have to be paid as much? No. But they will have to be paid because the NCAA model is broken and apparently illegal according to SCOTUS.

C-N will never be able to pay players. UT would have issues with having to pay ALL athletes.

Again, SCOTUS didn't say "it's only the revenue schools and revenue sports." SCOTUS said the "student-athlete" model of not paying players market value is illegal.

I fully realize market value at C-N isn't the same as UT and market value of a tennis player isn't the same as a basketball star, but the expense will still be crippling especially for small schools.

Lots of college athletes don't have any market value though. A track and field athlete for UT Chattanooga has no market value. I could see a future where the NCAA still exists as an entity, but at a level far from public interest (e.g., for FCS, DII, and DIII schools, or maybe for non-revenue sports in DI).

They will probably soon cease to exist as an entity that regulates DI football, basketball (men's and women's), and baseball though.

 

[tomq_123]

 

[Snapper58]

The discussion here seems to be on is a college athlete an employee. It seems to me that the lines are getting crossed. They are being paid for NIL, not playing a sport. While there is a relationship between the athlete's popularity and what they can make in NIL, they are not directly being paid for their performance on the field. What little I have seen about these NIL contracts there is no contingency of these athletes getting bonuses for making all american teams, team success or anything else. They can try to get more NIL deals or improve their deals, but that is with the collective. That to me is a leap from NIL to calling them employees of the school. They are employees to the collective/groups that want to use them for "advertising.

 

[Tman44]

It looks like Tennessee is playing spoiler to the NCAA's plans of an NIL massacre. It is being reported that the NCAA had plans to go after "a dozen to twenty" programs for ex post facto NIL violations. As we all know now, the NCAA used Patricia Forde to leak the UT news. Too bad NCAA, you picked on the wrong school to F with. The saying goes "F' around and find out." We're firmly in the "Find out" phase for the NCAA. Go Vols!

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athlonsports.com

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Lots of college athletes don't have any market value though. A track and field athlete for UT Chattanooga has no market value. I could see a future where the NCAA still exists as an entity, but at a level far from public interest (e.g., for FCS, DII, and DIII schools, or maybe for non-revenue sports in DI).

They will probably soon cease to exist as an entity that regulates DI football, basketball (men's and women's), and baseball though.

Employees, with market value or without, of a company must be paid. I'll completely agree that many athletes have zero monetary value to the most universities BUT if they are legally seen as employees or, as the SCOTUS has said, are treated like employees, they deserve pay.

That's EXACTLY why "athletes as employees" is a disaster for college sports. We can't expect the courts to go through every school and decide who needs to pay which sports, etc.

I've no idea WHO will sort that all out nor who should sort that all out. I just know that most schools will never be able to offer as many athletic opportunities if they have to pay the players.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

The discussion here seems to be on is a college athlete an employee. It seems to me that the lines are getting crossed. They are being paid for NIL, not playing a sport. While there is a relationship between the athlete's popularity and what they can make in NIL, they are not directly being paid for their performance on the field. What little I have seen about these NIL contracts there is no contingency of these athletes getting bonuses for making all american teams, team success or anything else. They can try to get more NIL deals or improve their deals, but that is with the collective. That to me is a leap from NIL to calling them employees of the school. They are employees to the collective/groups that want to use them for "advertising.

Read this synopsis of Justice Kavanaugh's opinion in the Alston case which was a 9-0 decision against the NCAA.

SCOTUS seems to think they are employees.

Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh rips NCAA in antitrust ruling, says it 'is not above the law'

Justice Brett Kavanaugh's opinion tears into the NCAA, says its business model "would be flatly illegal in almost any other industry in America."

www.usatoday.com

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

You can't legally restrict NIL. Could Bama say to Saban, "we pay you millions, you can't make Aflac commercials or own car lots" because we pay you enough.

NIL isn't just about sports. My old employer could never tell me how I could market my NIL.

You cannot restrict the amount of NIL a player can get, but you can limit how much each institution can have with players on their roster. Just like you can with 85 schollies, or dressing 70 on the road. Just like in pro ball, they can earn as much as they want, but have to play where they fit under a teams cap. Lots of players are denied a chance to play at Bama, when they hit 85. You have a 1 player exemption, you can have A player make a billion NIL but he takes your total cap. Bet MTSU would allocate one spot for a player being paid by a collective. Nothing to sue over till all teams are full, heck even then it is the collectives at risk. Pay a guy with no where to go or maybe takes his deal to D2. You just have to have a path to SOME team to comply with SCOTUS RULING.

 

[aRmo]

Danny, from the top rope!

No, this is equivalent to the Undertaker throwing Mankind through the top of the cage in that Hell in a Cell match.

 

[Delmar]

Lots of college athletes don't have any market value though. A track and field athlete for UT Chattanooga has no market value. I could see a future where the NCAA still exists as an entity, but at a level far from public interest (e.g., for FCS, DII, and DIII schools, or maybe for non-revenue sports in DI).

They will probably soon cease to exist as an entity that regulates DI football, basketball (men's and women's), and baseball though.

This is exactly how I think it eventually plays out.

 

[Tman44]

Employees, with market value or without, of a company must be paid. I'll completely agree that many athletes have zero monetary value to the most universities BUT if they are legally seen as employees or, as the SCOTUS has said, are treated like employees, they deserve pay.

That's EXACTLY why "athletes as employees" is a disaster for college sports. We can't expect the courts to go through every school and decide who needs to pay which sports, etc.

I've no idea WHO will sort that all out nor who should sort that all out. I just know that most schools will never be able to offer as many athletic opportunities if they have to pay the players.

I agree with you and I also ABSOLUTELY hate what I am about to say. Everyone is correct that this is an absolute mess, The litigation that brought upon NIL began in 2009. The NCAA failed miserably to come up with a contingency plan for losing the case in the decade it had to prepare. To be honest, failing miserably is the only thing the NCAA is truly good at doing. So, now we find ourselves where the Sherman Act enters into college sports. College sports will eventually be ruined if this isn't reigned in. This is what brings me to the part that I do not like, but it has become obvious that this solution is the necessary evil. Congress must act and pass legislation in regards to payment of college players. It REALLY pains me to say this but the legislative body holds the power needed to resolve this issue. I don't claim to have a plan, but other sports entities have had to resort to congressional assistance to achieve sustainability. The NFL; NBA; NHL and MLB all have anti-trust exemptions through congressional action. I'm afraid congressional action is going to be what is needed to fix this situation once and for all.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

You cannot restrict the amount of NIL a player can get, but you can limit how much each institution can have with players on their roster. Just like you can with 85 schollies, or dressing 70 on the road. Just like in pro ball, they can earn as much as they want, but have to play where they fit under a teams cap. Lots of players are denied a chance to play at Bama, when they hit 85. You have a 1 player exemption, you can have A player make a billion NIL but he takes your total cap. Bet MTSU would allocate one spot for a player being paid by a collective. Nothing to sue over till all teams are full, heck even then it is the collectives at risk. Pay a guy with no where to go or maybe takes his deal to D2. You just have to have a path to SOME team to comply with SCOTUS RULING.

C'mon. An organization like baseball gets away with salary caps because they're dealing with employees AND it's negotiated with the players union.

If players are employees or treated like employees and have their earnings OUTSIDE OF SPORTS capped, be prepared to get sued.

Even pro sports don't restrict NIL earnings. They restrict what products can be endorsed but not the amount a player or team can earn.

 

[Franklin_Vol09]

C'mon. An organization like baseball gets away with salary caps because they're dealing with employees AND it's negotiated with the players union.

If players are employees or treated like employees and have their earnings OUTSIDE OF SPORTS capped, be prepared to get sued.

Even pro sports don't restrict NIL earnings. They restrict what products can be endorsed but not the amount a player or team can earn.

Tell me you don’t understand contract law without telling me you don’t understand contract law.