UT under potential NCAA investigation for NIL

[turbovol]

Read this synopsis of Justice Kavanaugh's opinion in the Alston case which was a 9-0 decision against the NCAA.

SCOTUS seems to think they are employees.

Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh rips NCAA in antitrust ruling, says it 'is not above the law'

Justice Brett Kavanaugh's opinion tears into the NCAA, says its business model "would be flatly illegal in almost any other industry in America."

www.usatoday.com

Kavanaugh's quote makes NO sense because, quite obviously, college football/college athletics is not in any way a conventional industry--and I've no idea why he or anyone would think it is. A public university, with students, is not a private business with employees. Students/student-athletes don't get fired. They're full-time students. An athletic department is not run at all like a private business. There are some parallels of course--but athletic departments spend money in ways that private companies do not. They must subsidize 15 or 20 other sports that lose money and always will, for starters. They must spend a lot of money on travel for 20 teams. There are no athletic department stockholders or investors. So I'm not sure where Kavanaugh is coming from. I'm not sure why, after decades, suddenly we've got lots of people thinking that student-athletes should be paid, when nothing fundamentally has changed. If Kavanaugh's point was so obvious and valid, then why didn't this issue come up decades ago?

We've got people now who think that football and basketball players should have it both ways. Let's give them the respectable veneer of being college students while also paying them as professional athletes and/or employees. I say that's BS. Pick one or the other. You want to turn college football recruiting into a bribery contest and pay the players like professionals, fine, then sever the football and basketball programs from the universities: Privatize them, give them a new name, and create, effectively a new pro league. And stop the charade of being college students who care about academics. They don't--because we never hear about the LUCRATIVE financial benefits they're already getting--a free college education, which over four years, with food, housing, medical, tutoring, and more--is surely worth at least $250K over four years. That ain't chump change.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

I agree with you and I also ABSOLUTELY hate what I am about to say. Everyone is correct that this is an absolute mess, The litigation that brought upon NIL began in 2009. The NCAA failed miserably to come up with a contingency plan for losing the case in the decade it had to prepare. To be honest, failing miserably is the only thing the NCAA is truly good at doing. So, now we find ourselves where the Sherman Act enters into college sports. College sports will eventually be ruined if this isn't reigned in. This is what brings me to the part that I do not like, but it has become obvious that this solution is the necessary evil. Congress must act and pass legislation in regards to payment of college players. It REALLY pains me to say this but the legislative body holds the power needed to resolve this issue. I don't claim to have a plan, but other sports entities have had to resort to congressional assistance to achieve sustainability. The NFL; NBA; NHL and MLB all have anti-trust exemptions through congressional action. I'm afraid congressional action is going to be what is needed to fix this situation once and for all.

Yeah, expecting Congress to get it right and somehow save the "amateurness" of college is not something I'd bet the cost of a candybar on.

I'm afraid the amateur horse is out of the barn when it comes to college sports.

An Antitrust Exemption MIGHT keep the courts at bay but all those pro leagues ACCEPT that they're pro leagues.

The NCAA and schools aren't EXACTLY like other pro leagues and sorting out what they are and what they aren't and which schools are businesses and which are "old school" college athletics should've been going on since the 80s, but the NCAA failed.

I've hoped this can drag slowly through the courts but the NCAA seems desperate to off itself as fast as possible.

 

[ButchPlz]

Kavanaugh's quote makes NO sense because, quite obviously, college football/college athletics is not in any way a conventional industry--and I've no idea why he or anyone would think it is. A public university, with students, is not a private business with employees. Students/student-athletes don't get fired. They're full-time students. An athletic department is not run at all like a private business. There are some parallels of course--but athletic departments spend money in ways that private companies do not. They must subsidize 15 or 20 other sports that lose money and always will, for starters. They must spend a lot of money on travel for 20 teams. There are no athletic department stockholders or investors. So I'm not sure where Kavanaugh is coming from. I'm not sure why, after decades, suddenly we've got lots of people thinking that student-athletes should be paid, when nothing fundamentally has changed. If Kavanaugh's point was so obvious and valid, then why didn't this issue come up decades ago?

We've got people now who think that football and basketball players should have it both ways. Let's give them the respectable veneer of being college students while also paying them as professional athletes and/or employees. I say that's BS. Pick one or the other. You want to turn college football recruiting into a bribery contest and pay the players like professionals, fine, then sever the football and basketball programs from the universities: Privatize them, give them a new name, and create, effectively a new pro league. And stop the charade of being college students who care about academics. They don't--because we never hear about the LUCRATIVE financial benefits they're already getting--a free college education, which over four years, with food, housing, medical, tutoring, and more--is surely worth at least $250K over four years. That ain't chump change.

Some dude with repeat failed predictions and a load of bad insights on the internet knows more than nine Supreme Court justices.

 

[gray0306]

the lawsuit may need its own forum...it will have life for quite some time

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Kavanaugh's quote makes NO sense because, quite obviously, college football/college athletics is not in any way a conventional industry--and I've no idea why he or anyone would think it is. A public university, with students, is not a private business with employees. Students/student-athletes don't get fired. They're full-time students. An athletic department is not run at all like a private business. There are some parallels of course--but athletic departments spend money in ways that private companies do not. They must subsidize 15 or 20 other sports that lose money and always will, for starters. They must spend a lot of money on travel for 20 teams. There are no athletic department stockholders or investors. So I'm not sure where Kavanaugh is coming from. I'm not sure why, after decades, suddenly we've got lots of people thinking that student-athletes should be paid, when nothing fundamentally has changed. If Kavanaugh's point was so obvious and valid, then why didn't this issue come up decades ago?

We've got people now who think that football and basketball players should have it both ways. Let's give them the respectable veneer of being college students while also paying them as professional athletes and/or employees. I say that's BS. Pick one or the other. You want to turn college football recruiting into a bribery contest and pay the players like professionals, fine, then sever the football and basketball programs from the universities: Privatize them, give them a new name, and create, effectively a new pro league. And stop the charade of being college students who care about academics. They don't--because we never hear about the LUCRATIVE financial benefits they're already getting--a free college education, which over four years, with food, housing, medical, tutoring, and more--is surely worth at least $250K over four years. That ain't chump change.

I'm absolutely certain Justice Kavanaugh does make sense. He had 8 other Justices who could read his opinion and disagree or chip in their thoughts. None did.

Again, you've brought up "the scholarship is worth so much" without addressing that players have been paid beyond the scholarship under the table for 50+ years. Obviously, the value of the scholarship wasn't greater than the value of the player to the school.

NO ONE SAID THE SCHOLARSHIP WAS CHUMP CHANGE! The players are simply worth more and the "bag money" and now NIL deals are making that very clear to everyone.

 

[DaddyChad]

You cannot restrict the amount of NIL a player can get, but you can limit how much each institution can have with players on their roster. Just like you can with 85 schollies, or dressing 70 on the road. Just like in pro ball, they can earn as much as they want, but have to play where they fit under a teams cap. Lots of players are denied a chance to play at Bama, when they hit 85. You have a 1 player exemption, you can have A player make a billion NIL but he takes your total cap. Bet MTSU would allocate one spot for a player being paid by a collective. Nothing to sue over till all teams are full, heck even then it is the collectives at risk. Pay a guy with no where to go or maybe takes his deal to D2. You just have to have a path to SOME team to comply with SCOTUS RULING.

I’m pretty sure they can’t do that unless there’s a players union and bargaining. I could be wrong I’m sure an attorney can weigh in on this but I don’t think teams can be capped bc it’s not the team paying the players.

 

[Dadof2Vols]

You cannot restrict the amount of NIL a player can get, but you can limit how much each institution can have with players on their roster. Just like you can with 85 schollies, or dressing 70 on the road. Just like in pro ball, they can earn as much as they want, but have to play where they fit under a teams cap. Lots of players are denied a chance to play at Bama, when they hit 85. You have a 1 player exemption, you can have A player make a billion NIL but he takes your total cap. Bet MTSU would allocate one spot for a player being paid by a collective. Nothing to sue over till all teams are full, heck even then it is the collectives at risk. Pay a guy with no where to go or maybe takes his deal to D2. You just have to have a path to SOME team to comply with SCOTUS RULING.

I disagree with your reasoning. I think Scotus would see that as restricting earnings potential unless the students/employees agree to it via some kind of collective bargaining.

SCOTUS made clear you cannot put any restrictions on student athletes when it comes to NIL that you do not put on the other students.

 

[Delmar]

I'm absolutely certain Justice Kavanaugh does make sense. He had 8 other Justices who could read his opinion and disagree or chip in their thoughts. None did.

Again, you've brought up "the scholarship is worth so much" without addressing that players have been paid beyond the scholarship under the table for 50+ years. Obviously, the value of the scholarship wasn't greater than the value of the player to the school.

NO ONE SAID THE SCHOLARSHIP WAS CHUMP CHANGE! The players are simply worth more and the "bag money" and now NIL deals are making that very clear to everyone.

Add to that, the schools are making a lot more money now than they were in turbo’s “good old days”. The players deserve some share of that windfall. Don’t have a clue to govern it but they deserve a share.

 

[Dadof2Vols]

Kavanaugh's quote makes NO sense because, quite obviously, college football/college athletics is not in any way a conventional industry--and I've no idea why he or anyone would think it is. A public university, with students, is not a private business with employees. Students/student-athletes don't get fired. They're full-time students. An athletic department is not run at all like a private business. There are some parallels of course--but athletic departments spend money in ways that private companies do not. They must subsidize 15 or 20 other sports that lose money and always will, for starters. They must spend a lot of money on travel for 20 teams. There are no athletic department stockholders or investors. So I'm not sure where Kavanaugh is coming from. I'm not sure why, after decades, suddenly we've got lots of people thinking that student-athletes should be paid, when nothing fundamentally has changed. If Kavanaugh's point was so obvious and valid, then why didn't this issue come up decades ago?

We've got people now who think that football and basketball players should have it both ways. Let's give them the respectable veneer of being college students while also paying them as professional athletes and/or employees. I say that's BS. Pick one or the other. You want to turn college football recruiting into a bribery contest and pay the players like professionals, fine, then sever the football and basketball programs from the universities: Privatize them, give them a new name, and create, effectively a new pro league. And stop the charade of being college students who care about academics. They don't--because we never hear about the LUCRATIVE financial benefits they're already getting--a free college education, which over four years, with food, housing, medical, tutoring, and more--is surely worth at least $250K over four years. That ain't chump change.

That is the sad part.

Take the student part out of this and the unfortunate thing is the athletes will spend 100 on sport and none toward a degree and then you will end up with 2% that go to higher level and 10% that took the opportunity to get their education and 88% that leave without any diploma and for a lot of them they just lost their opportunity to succeed in the rest of their life. The degree even in basket weaving is still a valued degree.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Add to that, the schools are making a lot more money now than they were in turbo’s “good old days”. The players deserve some share of that windfall. Don’t have a clue to govern it but they deserve a share.

I'm of the opinion the schools need to get out of sports as a big business. The old lawsuit that let schools get big media checks and let fans get all the football I love on Saturdays has a big piece of the blame here.

It's always the love of money that corrupts things. There's a Book about that.

If the programs weren't so damn lucrative to the schools, if we as fans didn't expect so damn much from the programs, if there was less value on sports and more value on academics....... well...... we'd be like Vandy.

Nevermind, I like winning.

 

[DaddyChad]

It looks like Tennessee is playing spoiler to the NCAA's plans of an NIL massacre. It is being reported that the NCAA had plans to go after "a dozen to twenty" programs for ex post facto NIL violations. As we all know now, the NCAA used Patricia Forde to leak the UT news. Too bad NCAA, you picked on the wrong school to F with. The saying goes "F' around and find out." We're firmly in the "Find out" phase for the NCAA. Go Vols!

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athlonsports.com

Sounds even Thamel was skeptical about this turning out well for the NCAA

 

[cherokeeeVOL]

I had to give you the upvote for the gif. Ironically enough, I just watched Jeremiah Johnson for the first time last night. Really good movie! I love finding gems like this movie that were before my time! Apologies for being off topic.

On topic, as I said before, NCAA is targeting UT because they are attempting to set a precedent and need a big name to go after. They think they have something on the Nico situation and mistakenly assumed that UT would just roll over again.

I’m not educated in this enough to have a confident prediction of what will transpire, but I’m delighted to see that UT didn’t just roll over. I hope it works out for the best, for the Vols and the rest of us.

Yes! It's one of my favorite westerns. Not too many people know about it outside of this gif that's out been out there for a while.

On the NCAA stuff, yeah I agree, they're looking for schools to make an example of and UT just happens to have one of, if not THE, highest profile recruits with a deal. It's nice to see the NCAA have to play some defense for once at least. Sadly it seems like it will drag on for a while but UT and other schools don't appear to be backing down.

 

[VolDave53]

The players, in any sport, should be able to work an outside job (like all the other students) to get some bucks. The value is based on many factors, but to artificially limit the amount to whatever preconceived notions we may have is wrong headed. It seems to me that NIL assists in taking care of the Student Athletes in a free market manner, just like the labor of any American.

We had a player in the Fulmer era that got in a bit of a tif with the NCAA because he worked as a car salesman in the off season. He worked in Murfreesboro in order to not receive any benefits from a booster. The owner of the business was deemed a booster by the NCAA. He had to sit.

The whole notion of the NCAA as some omniscient, omnipresent body of wise overseers is reminiscent of the South Park episode that blasted the NCAA as slave traders.

 

[Visiting Dawg]

Carson Beck announced what he wanted 4 mil or did I miss the announcement where he is playing for free?

Carson Beck offers limited clarity about his Georgia future

Carson Beck is trying to make a difficult decision as Georgia gets set for the Orange Bowl, and he considers the NFL Draft.

www.saturdaydownsouth.com

or did he decide to play for 200 thousand and you think that’s chump change.

And yes every player now is a recruit even seniors.

The holy saint act makes you look like a stupid Dawg.

I may be a stupid Dawg but I know you got trolled. CB told Kirby Smart he had no idea where the rumored 4 mil figure came from. He is expecting to make between 1 and 2 mil off of NIL unless he scores a national brand. (like Dr. Pepper)

 

[normbland]

How do you know so much of this information?

The person who knows this much information ("Chomper") also has posts which show a clear knowledge of and affection of U. of Missouri.

Pat Forde apparently received information about the current NCAA activity that was not public knowledge before he reported it, and allegations have been made that the NCAA leaked information in this case.

Pat Forde is a graduate of the University of Missouri.

Is Chomper actually Pat Forde?

 

[cgrish]

One question we also need to answer in all of this, who is out to get TN because I guarantee you go to most if not all top 25 college football teams and will find the same things

I would say all of them are, who are using nil at all. On one of the high school bowl games, like Polynesian game, several players were asked about nil, and they actually gave out the amount offered, and yes all of them are still in high school. So yes all of the schools are doing it because there are really no iron clad rules governing the nil.

 

[Voltopia]

I'm of the opinion the schools need to get out of sports as a big business.

This. The transformation of college sports into professional sports can only end with their seperation - or at least should end with their separation. One can only wonder if the schools will have the moral and ethical strength needed to take that step.

 

[Dadof2Vols]

I may be a stupid Dawg but I know you got trolled. CB told Kirby Smart he had no idea where the rumored 4 mil figure came from. He is expecting to make between 1 and 2 mil off of NIL unless he scores a national brand. (like Dr. Pepper)

Your posted insinuated that UGA players weren’t getting big NIL deals. 1-2 mil is big in most peoples eyes.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

The person who knows this much information ("Chomper") also has posts which show a clear knowledge of and affection of U. of Missouri.

Pat Forde apparently received information about the current NCAA activity that was not public knowledge before he reported it, and allegations have been made that the NCAA leaked information in this case.

Pat Forde is a graduate of the University of Missouri.

Is Chomper actually Pat Forde?

I didn't know that. Pat Forde, Cory Bush, The University of Missouri, Chief fans that are only there because of that red lipped bimbo...

Damn I hate the state of Missouri.

 

[Visiting Dawg]

Your posted insinuated that UGA players weren’t getting big NIL deals. 1-2 mil is big in most peoples eyes.

Earlier in the thread I briefly described that UGA has 2 separate NIL programs. One of the programs which is ran by our version of Spyre funds the majority of the guys and provides a nicer little chunk of change than the average 18 to 22 yr old earn and has some performance based incentives but it's not a million dollar deal.

The second tier is for the more marketable kids and they receive help in securing endorsement deals. These guys don't take the pooled money and earn based on the endorsements they secure. Unless you see these kids popping up on an advertising campaign or see one of the contracts, the numbers you see are usually estimates based on their potential. CB is estimated to make between 1 to 2 mil which is around where you would expect a Heisman candidate on a championship contender.

 

[Delmar]

I'm of the opinion the schools need to get out of sports as a big business. The old lawsuit that let schools get big media checks and let fans get all the football I love on Saturdays has a big piece of the blame here.

It's always the love of money that corrupts things. There's a Book about that.

If the programs weren't so damn lucrative to the schools, if we as fans didn't expect so damn much from the programs, if there was less value on sports and more value on academics....... well...... we'd be like Vandy.

Nevermind, I like winning.

Yep. Unfortunately that horse left the barn years ago and it’s never going back in. Everybody (including the NCAA or whatever it evolves into) is going to have to figure out a way to deal with it. What that is I just don’t know.

 

[ThatVolGuy]

I didn't know that. Pat Forde, Cory Bush, The University of Missouri, Chief fans that are only there because of that red lipped bimbo billionaire ...

Damn I hate the state of Missouri.

Fixed.

 

[Delmar]

Earlier in the thread I briefly described that UGA has 2 separate NIL programs. One of the programs which is ran by our version of Spyre funds the majority of the guys and provides a nicer little chunk of change than the average 18 to 22 yr old earn and has some performance based incentives but it's not a million dollar deal.

The second tier is for the more marketable kids and they receive help in securing endorsement deals. These guys don't take the pooled money and earn based on the endorsements they secure. Unless you see these kids popping up on an advertising campaign or see one of the contracts, the numbers you see are usually estimates based on their potential. CB is estimated to make between 1 to 2 mil which is around where you would expect a Heisman candidate on a championship contender.

To be fair, there was a recent quote from a current coach that said the going rate for a starting QB in the transfer portal is $1 to $2 million. Beck’s figure isn’t that outrageous if Georgia wanted to keep him. (Which they obviously did.) Frankly Beck could have probably gotten more from another school.

 

[Woodlawn VOL]

This whole debacle is an illustration of why the NCAA no longer works.

I've seen TONS of complaints that "the NIL and the portal are ruining football" and "somebody needs to do something about this NIL and portal madness" and "this is out of control and there's no way this should be like this."

So, the NCAA starts doing stuff to dampen NIL activity.

"OMG! Those bastards are trying to wreck football!" "You can't control NIL and they need to quit picking on us!" "Sue them out of existence!"

So, what do you guys want?

Do you want the Wild West of teams being able to recruit "by any means necessary" or do you want a body to have some oversight?

You want somebody that knows what they have oversight of and that all members know what the rules are. The NCAA stood pat while all this NIL came about never doing anything. Now they want to regulate what the NIL is doing after the fact. The NCAA is nothing but organized chaos. It’s time major college football got a new governing body.

 

[Visiting Dawg]

To be fair, there was a recent quote from a current coach that said the going rate for a starting QB in the transfer portal is $1 to $2 million. Beck’s figure isn’t that outrageous if Georgia wanted to keep him. (Which they obviously did.) Frankly Beck could have probably gotten more from another school.

I don't know a lot but I do know Beck returned because he thinks the chances of improving his draft status from a second round slot to top 10 are good. It could be a 20 to 30 mil decision. Having said that, I'm all for these kids making all they can get.